Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Understanding color-temperature relationships

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  • #989610
    Ifat Glassman
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        Hi all. This is a great tutorial by my teacher at my school (Georgetown atelier), Tenaya Sims. I thought I’d share it since I learned so much from it.

        It starts with the idea that: “Drawing and Value are almost always the ‘workers’ who build the stage that Color can dance upon. As long as the artist is relatively consistent with their use of color temperature relationships they can bend and tailor their choice of colors without compromising the visual integrity of the image”.

        Then he demonstrates how color and color-temperature relationships can change the appearance of all the other colors in an image and its overall appearance. As an example he shows a painting he did before completion and after:

        If you want you can read the rest on the school’s website (I study there): here’s the Link[/URL]. I hope you find it useful and leave comments!

        #1160661

        Hi, thanks for your post and welcome to the forum.

        The concept of ‘colour temperature’ as artists think of it is just another way of describing colour differences, primarily hue, that can be described in another way, and better (with greater detail and more accurately).

        If you’d like to read more on this there are quite a few prior threads that hash out the problems with talking about colour in this way, mainly to do with its approximate nature as well as with the idiosyncratic way different artists use it. One thing you’ll find when you begin to get a grasp on the subject is that for some artists it seems to represent a unique property that’s somehow separate from other colour differences, which really bears looking at closely.

        Einion

        Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

        Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

        #1160676
        Anonymous

            Oh my, it is not about identifying or describing a specific color, it is all about

            color temperature relationships

            Note the posters description of the concept he is trying to convey in the example:

            Then he demonstrates how color and color-temperature relationships can change [U]the appearance of all the other colors [/U]in an image and its [U]overall appearance[/U].

            he is not talking about a specific color or hue, he is talking about the appearance of all the colors combined and the interaction between them.
            I challenge anyone to rewrite the post and only describe nothing but the specific colors, would it convey the concept in a better way :confused:
            I would really like to read it so give it a shot pls :D
            This is not in the realm of identifying and categorizing a specific color in terms of it’s hue. These are aspects of color like simultaneous contrast and harmony and visual complements that are the appearance of color as a response in a human being. It is not better described in any other way than by the terms warm and cool, ie. temperature. Listing the specific colors in the painting above may more accurately identify the specific colors in terms of their hue value and chroma, but it would render one completely devoid of any ability to communicate and describe this aspect and that would in no way be a better way to serve the purpose and concept behind this example.
            I am sensing and feeling like the one on the right is warmer, left is cooler, but I could be wrong. No I take that back, I wouldn’t be wrong, just different.

            #1160677
            Anonymous

                Just for the record and in spite of what I posted above, I am not seeing a significant change in the color relationships, that is, for instance as an example, the green hair bow doesn’t look any different to me though the red oranges in the face are different. I am not sure that this is a terrific example of the change in relationships, again I could be wrong/different than others.

                #1160662

                Sid “colour temperature relationships” are colour relationships, as I pretty much say above. The only thing in vision is colour, which encompasses all three dimensions. There isn’t a fourth, ergo any ‘colour temperature’ description must be describing some colour difference.

                he is [U]not [/U]talking about a specific color or hue, he is talking about the appearance of all the colors combined and the interaction between them.

                Yes, and? I’m fully in favour of doing this, just without reliance on ‘colour temperature’ terminology.

                I challenge anyone to rewrite the post and only describe nothing but the specific colors, would it convey the concept in a better way :confused:
                I would really like to read it so give it a shot pls :D

                :D

                My post above is in the way of an FYI or headsup to a new poster who might not have been exposed to another way of thinking about and talking about colour*. I don’t believe I said anything that would lead you to think I was suggesting one needs to talk about the colour in a painting just on the level of specific colours.

                This is not in the realm of identifying and categorizing a specific color in terms of it’s hue. These are aspects of color like simultaneous contrast and harmony and visual complements that are the appearance of color as a response in a human being. [COLOR=”RoyalBlue]It is not better described in any other way than by the terms warm and cool, ie. temperature.[/COLOR]

                That’s an opinion Sid . I don’t agree and of course anyone else who doesn’t rely on ‘colour temperature’ wouldn’t either. Just because you’re so sure in your gut that you’re right doesn’t make us wrong ;)

                I’ll post a bit more later if I have the time, but as I mention in my above post there are many prior threads on the subject that hash out the various issues in detail (with many more examples) for anyone who would like to read more.

                *One I can show is of greater accuracy, and overall utility.

                Einion

                Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

                Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

                #1160678
                Anonymous

                    Sid “colour temperature relationships” [u]are[/u] colour relationships[/quote]
                    I agree with that, you have removed the word “temperature”, but in doing so it eliminates the concept of temperature that the poster wants to convey. I understand that is what you want to do and I understand why you want to remove it. You think that there is a better way that doesn’t involve using the concept of temperature, it is that simple.
                    [QUOTE]The only thing in vision is colour, which encompasses all three dimensions. There isn’t a fourth, ergo any ‘colour temperature’ description [i]must[/i] be describing some colour difference.

                    This says that the human sensation of perceiving color temperature in the brain does not exist or else it should not be talked about. Talking only in terms of the physical differences (what I meant by specific colors, their hue value and chroma) does not include the concept in terms of the response felt. But it is the physical differences that elicit the response.
                    Not all people like certain color combinations of hue, value, or chroma in a painting. The operative word is ‘like’. Is there a better way to describe this feeling or sensation rather than reliance on such a nebulous word as ‘like’?

                    I’m fully in favour of doing this, just without reliance on ‘colour temperature’ terminology..

                    Again, I fully understand why you do not want to talk about temperature.
                    However many do want to talk about color in terms of temperature in this color theory forum but I am getting the feeling and the message that it is not welcome to do so. It isn’t a question of reliance as an end all, be all terminology, it is just talking amongst ourselves about a mutual feeling/sensation.

                    My post above is in the way of an FYI or headsup to a new poster who might not have been exposed to another way of thinking about and talking about colour*. I don’t believe I said anything that would lead you to think I was suggesting one needs to talk about the colour in a painting [i]just[/i] on the level of specific colours…

                    Sure, I think it is fine to think and talk about colors in any way, but including temperature.

                    That’s an opinion Sid . I don’t agree and of course anyone else who doesn’t rely on ‘colour temperature’ wouldn’t either. Just because you’re so sure in your gut that you’re right doesn’t make us wrong

                    I didn’t say you (or us) were wrong, nor did I say one must totally rely on using temperature as a sole criterion in describing color.
                    I clearly said:

                    the appearance of color as a response

                    That response is a viewers temperature sensation, In my opinion, this sensation is best talked about in terms of temperature and that is why artists historically, currently, and constantly express themselves in those terms.

                    colour differences, … can be described in another way, and better

                    This is also an opinion.

                    #1160663

                    [QUOTE=Einion]The only thing in vision is colour, which encompasses all three dimensions. There isn’t a fourth, ergo any ‘colour temperature’ description must be describing some colour difference.

                    This says that the human sensation of perceiving color temperature in the brain does not exist or else it should not be talked about. [/QUOTE]
                    If I’d meant either I would have said so straight out Sid.

                    The concept clearly exists, in exactly the same way that any belief can no matter what it’s based on! If it didn’t then we literally wouldn’t be talking about it. What I’m saying, as before, is it’s completely unnecessary to talk about colour – because it doesn’t actually describe anything else, no unique quality or forth element, is in short just another way of generally referring to some colour property.

                    Not all people like certain color combinations of hue, value, or chroma in a painting. The operative word is ‘like’. Is there a better way to describe this feeling or sensation rather than reliance on such a nebulous word as ‘like’?

                    Hey hang on a sec, you can’t denigrate the word like on the grounds that it’s nebulous in defence of ‘colour temperature’… hardly the poster child for specificity :D

                    It isn’t a question of reliance as an end all, be all terminology, it is just talking amongst ourselves about a mutual feeling/sensation.

                    You should recall that I’ve said before that I’m not completely against it as a first broad-strokes distinction to be made about colour, into two distinct families if you will, but once you get down to needing to talk about colour in greater detail then it can’t be relied on and that is where my main objection lies, particularly since it is so frequently called to serve in exactly that way.

                    Personally I would be very much in favour of ditching it entirely, but in the English-speaking world at least some knowledge of it is important because it crops up so much.

                    I didn’t say… one must totally rely on using temperature as a sole criterion in describing color.

                    I didn’t say or imply that you did Sid.

                    To tackle this bit separately and in summary:

                    …many do want to talk about color in terms of temperature in this color theory forum but I am getting the feeling and the message that it is not welcome to do so.

                    Far from it Sid. All viewpoints are welcome, but like anything posted here other members are free to subject it to scrutiny if they are unsure or don’t agree. This is actually laid down in the forum guidelines so that new posters are fully aware in advance, if they go to the trouble of reading them.

                    Nobody wants the topic to grilled to death every time it’s brought up (I sure don’t) and as I said above, my post was in the way of a headsup to the OP, not a rallying cry to again heat up the salamander :)

                    Because it’s you I’m willing to delve into it again if you’re in the mood, but I don’t want to go into it any further here unless the OP comes back and wishes to talk about it.

                    So if you’re interested in continuing then feel free to start a new thread. I would ask though that you re-familiarise yourself with the topic as it’s previously been discussed, so that there isn’t needless replication of the same arguments. There are in particular at least a couple of threads in the Hall Of Fame (possibly one or two in Oil Painting too) where you and I discuss it directly with each other, I think it would be pointless to go over any of the same ground again.

                    Einion

                    Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

                    Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

                    #1160679
                    Anonymous

                        I am familiar with the threads that discuss the merits of talking in terms of temperature vs the problems some have with misusing it.
                        I would rather not derail this thread by repeatedly rehashing the previous contention. I believe it would be helpful to focus upon, and stick to this topic as it is presented in this thread here and now.
                        The author has constructed the entire tutorial based upon the concept of temperature to illustrate color differences.

                        describing colour differences… can be described in another way, and better

                        I would like this tutorial to be presented in that better way.
                        Please rewrite the tutorial example without any reference to temperature as suggested here:

                        Personally I would be very much in favour of ditching it entirely

                        pls do it here:

                        When I did this portrait study I grabbed an available canvas from my studio that was already toned with raw sienna, resulting in a yellowish wash. As it turned out, the light on the model was considerably cool, and when[U] I came back the next day and looked at the painting it seemed like there was a clash between how separately cool the face felt against the background wash.[/U] To solve this I looked for the relatively warm areas/range in the face, and brought some of the same yellowish/red warmth found in the background into those areas in the face. I also tried to use the same cool greens/turquoise found in the ribbon in the cool dark halftones of the face and in the iris’ of eyes. It’s possible the dark halftones on the face had more of a blueish cast in actuality, but since relative temperature changes are more important that specific color, it was possible to lean the cools more towards green/turquoise in order to echo the ribbon and eyes. The opposite could also be implemented, meaning altering cools of the ribbon to match those of the face etc.

                        Drawing with just Black, White, and Red chalk are an excellent way to step into the world of color. Limiting our color options forces us to think in terms of temperature relationships above trying to match any specific color. This way we can learn to work with the more important aspects of color without juggling too many variables at once. If executed well, it can be remarkable how ‘colorful’ one of these drawings can appear. The opposite is also true: a full-color palette can easily yield a lifeless, ‘muddy’ painting. I’d go further to say especially when using a multitude of colors on the palette it’s important to understand color temperature relationships.

                        I have underlined one sentence in particular that I would like to read being rewritten in better terms.
                        “I came back the next day and looked at the painting it seemed like there was a clash between how separately cool the face felt against the background wash.”

                        #1160656
                        Patrick1
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                            The color differences in the portrait are very subtle – difficult to see unless you look for it. If you look closely, you can see that the right one has darker and greener shading as well as more red around the nose and face, and in the shadows under the chin. Perhaps the increased green/red contrast is the intended example of the use of temperature relationships here.

                            But honestly, I like the left one better – I consider it perfectly fine and ‘finished’, whereas the right one, IMO, seems to be trying to finish what’s already finished, fix what isn’t broken. I prefer the slightly lighter, more delicate and airy coloration of the unfinished one at left, the right one looks a bit unnecessarily ‘heavy’. Just my color thoughts:grouphug: .

                            #1160657
                            Patrick1
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                                …I’ve said before that I’m not completely against it [color temperature] as a first broad-strokes distinction to be made about colour, into two distinct families if you will, but once you get down to needing to talk about colour in greater detail then it can’t be relied on and that is where my main objection lies, [i]particularly since it is so frequently called to serve in exactly that way[/i].

                                That sums up my thoughts exactly. I see warm & cool as nice for roughly lumping into a box the colors I see in the shadow side of a building vs. the colors on the sunlit side. But it doesn’t tell much else with the specificity I still need to choose the right colors. Color temperature an arrow that suggests a general direction to take, but isn’t very specific (it’s something like “go a bit further west or southwest from where you are now”). Is the shadow side strongly bluish? Slightly? Grey without much discernable hue? Is the sunlit side pinkish? Orangish? Beige? Yellowish? Light grey without a discernable hue? If someone is getting the temperature relationships right, it’s because they’re choosing their colors (hue value and chroma) right…regardless of whether or not they’re thinking in terms of temperature.

                                #1160680
                                Anonymous

                                    That sums up my thoughts exactly. I see warm & cool as nice for [I]roughly[/I] lumping into a box the colors I see in the shadow side of a building vs. the colors on the sunlit side. But it doesn’t tell much else with the specificity I still need to choose the right colors. Color temperature an arrow that suggests a general direction to take, but isn’t very specific (it’s something like “go a bit further west or southwest from where you are now”). Is the shadow side strongly bluish? Slightly? Grey without much discernable hue? Is the sunlit side pinkish? Orangish? Beige? Yellowish? Light grey without a discernable hue? If someone is getting the temperature relationships right, it’s because they’re choosing their [I]colors[/I] (hue value and chroma) right…regardless of whether or not they’re thinking in terms of temperature.

                                    Yes and the author is using it in a non specific manner. The author has made clear in the tutorial:

                                    relative temperature changes are more important than specific color

                                    I am interested in how the quote from the author above would be better served by omitting any reference to temperature, rewriting it would help me in understanding and others so that we can ditch the temperature concept altogether.

                                    #1160658
                                    Patrick1
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                                        relative temperature changes are more important than specific color

                                        I am interested in how the quote from the author above would be better served by omitting any reference to temperature, rewriting it would help me in understanding and others so that we can ditch the temperature concept altogether.

                                        “relative color changes (hue, value, chroma) are more important than specific color” is unabmiguous (regardless of the artist), and would work equally well for those that choose to think in terms of temperature as well as those who don’t. If the color differences are right, the ‘temperature’ (however you define it) must be right. But the opposite isn’t necessarily true.

                                        #1160681
                                        Anonymous

                                            sorry I meant the entire quote from the tutorial, but your removal of the temperature factor in that sentence does begin to illustrate the point. Your sentence is decidedly more ambiguous to me because it removes the arrow pointer that the author put in place.
                                            As you said:

                                            Color temperature (is) an arrow that suggests a general direction to take

                                            I will go ahead and remove temperature from this quote that communicates to me how the author was thinking:

                                            As it turned out, the light on the model was considerably cool

                                            I get the impression that the color not right, and that it was leaning too far towards the half of the color wheel that is generally considered to be cool.
                                            The direction to go to rectify it would be the opposite direction.
                                            But here without the temp reference:
                                            “As it turned out, the light on the model was considerably different”
                                            or maybe:
                                            “As it turned out, the light on the model was considerably blue”

                                            I get the impression that it was something is not right, but it is more ambiguous than what the author originally wrote. There isn’t a descriptor that provides any direction to go to fix it. That is what was intended with this particular tutorial about thinking in terms of temperature.

                                            #1160653

                                            Cézanne- “To paint after nature is not a matter of copying the objective world; it’s giving shape to your sensations.”

                                            Sensation implies a feeling as much as a perception.

                                            I like the article from the OP in how he showed/used red and black to open the door to feeling and understanding a warm and cool arrangement. Van gogh shows his study here and Pissarro took it just a bit farther here by adding blue over the black in his study.

                                            It takes time to become familiar with the concept of warm and cool but beginning to feel these relationships are the cornerstone. Many of these guys thought a bit of theory was good (example- complements etc.) but too much becomes a liability as you can probably imagine that to much theory shuts down your ability to feel.

                                            .

                                            An art which isn't based on feeling isn't an art at all. Paul Cézanne :)

                                            #1160666
                                            OK
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                                                Thanks to Ifat Glassman for an excellent link there is some very good stuff on that site.
                                                I find the concept of colour temperature very useful when painting directly. There is usually not much time to decide how you are going to tackle a subject. Usually I ask a few simple questions, am I going to paint this low or high key in relation to tone, am I going to paint it overall warm or cool. I’m not thinking about what individual colours I’m going to use just the overall look. Then during the painting I can ask of individual elements, is it darker than what it’s next to, is it warmer or cooler. Sure chroma comes into this and how I’m going to kill it but it’s not an important consideration for me in the overall look.

                                                :wave: Dave

                                                “What peaches and what penumbras! Whole families shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!—and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons?”
                                                — Allen Ginsberg
                                                Are you ready for a Journey?
                                                PS Critiques always welcome but no plaudits or emoting, please don’t press the like button.

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