Home Forums The Learning Center Studio Tips and Framing Mounting canvas to panels

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  • #454542
    keithz829
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        I want to mount canvas on panels as I’ve found that I prefer the feel of painting on canvas over painting directly on panels, but I want the rigidity of wood for my abstracts.

        Can anyone tell me if I can attach canvas to a panel that has already had gesso applied and sanded? If so, what would be the best product to use?

        Thanks

        keithz from AZ
        painter, photographer, traveler

        #604252
        Montana Jim
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            I mount linen as well as a finer weave canvas on Ampersand panels. For quick studies out door I use Elmer’s glue to attach to panel and place heavy objects like books until dry, normally less than 8 hours. For larger works I still use Ampersand panels but use BVA 371 glue as it is conservative safe and artwork is easily removed if necessary for reattaching to other supports.
            Hoe this helps.

            By the way even if I have already used a panel I still can sand the image off and use that panel again so yes you can mount to gesso’d boards already used.

            #604247
            contumacious
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                It is best to seal on all sides and edges, any wood based panel before you attach a canvas to it, so having the panel already covered in gesso is a good thing. You still might want to add a moisture proof seal on top of the gesso since most gesso is highly water absorbent, but that is probably not necessary if you are using Beva 371 or an acrylic medium as the adhesive as they tend to block moisture fairly well.

                If you use ACM panels, no sealing is needed. Just a light sanding of the side you plan to attach your canvas to – not sanding through the white primer already there – plus a thorough removal of all dust and grease with alcohol is all you have to do to prep it.

                You should size and prime raw canvas BEFORE you attach it to the sealed panel, otherwise it might warp. If you are paying big bucks for really nice canvas / linen I would go straight to ACM panels rather than tempered hardboard or plywood since they are less prone to warping, cracking, delamination etc.

                #604245

                What Contumacious said, only to add …

                Seal the back of a hardboard panel first using gloss medium. Then immediately seal the front, then the edges. I support the wet back side on empty peanut butter jars while coating the front. For panels 11X14 or smaller a jar at each corner is okay. 16X20 and up you may want to support the center also. If you started with a flat panel you will end up with a flat panel working this way and the possibility of warping is much reduced.

                I use gloss gel medium as adhesive – doesn’t dry too fast and I think there’s less moisture.

                A painting is never really done as long as I can get my hands on it.

                #604240
                TruEnuff
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                    I have attached linen and canvas to 1/4″ MDF and 3/16″ birch plywood panels previously coated with gesso and sanded between coats. In most instances I used Lamin-All adhesive, but for a few panels I used Titebond II wood glue. I’ve had no problems with either adhesive.

                    I particularly like the Lamin-All because it can be brushed on the panel surface and once it sets up (very fast…about 15 minutes or so) the linen is laid on and ironed with a common steam iron for a couple of minutes and it is done…no drying time and no weights needed. (Use a cloth or old shirt between the iron and the linen / canvas.) However it is more costly than the wood glue, so that’s a trade off. (About $40 a quart through Amazon, I think)

                    But overall both are easy and quick. If you paint a lot, the savings are significant and well worth the time.

                    Give it a try! I think you’ll like the results.

                    Bruce

                    Bruce B. Hancock
                    C&C's always welcome!
                    http://brucehancockart.blogspot.com/
                    "If a picture wasn't going very well, I'd put a puppy in it." Norman Rockwell 1894 -1978

                    #604244
                    ddattler
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                        I glue my canvas to luan or hardboard panels with heavy bodies acrylic gloss medium. I use enough medium so that some of it squeezes out from the edges when I use a rubber roller on it. I cover the piece with wax paper so it doesn’t stick to whatever I weight it down with (Books, plywood, etc.). I dry it overnight, trim off any excess and it’s ready to use. I’ve never had one De-laminate.

                        http://wildlifearts.com
                        Practice what you know, and it will help to make clear what now you do not know. ~ Rembrandt

                        In Art, Learning to see is at least as important as the actual creation of Art. ~ George Benedict,

                        #604246
                        keithz829
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                            Thanks for all the great info. I bought some unprimed linen and attached the linen to my panels using Lineco Neutral PH PVA, which worked very well.

                            Now, I’m wondering if I should use the same PVA to size the attached linen before priming with Gamblin Oil Primer or if I can go straight to applying Gesso.

                            Once more, thanks in advance for any advice.

                            keithz from AZ
                            painter, photographer, traveler

                            #604251
                            bongo
                            Default

                                …. You still might want to add a moisture proof seal on top of the gesso since most gesso is highly water absorbent…

                                Gesso is highly water-absorbent? I have never found this to be the case. SInce gesso is water soluble – if it were highly water absorbent, it would never dry.

                                http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/18-Sep-2019/1999899-sigsmall.jpg
                                STUDIOBONGO

                                #604248
                                contumacious
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                                    Gesso is highly water-absorbent? I have never found this to be the case. SInce gesso is water soluble – if it were highly water absorbent, it would never dry.

                                    Solubility and absorbency are not the same thing. Dried acrylic gesso is in fact a very absorbent ground. When the acrylic binder in gesso dries, it changes to a non water soluble material. My understanding is the dried film is porous due to the high ratio of solids mixed in to make it absorbent such as marble dust. When fully dry, most commercial acrylic gessos will absorb quite a bit of water as well as oil. This absorbency is what causes the ‘sinking in’ of oils. Additionally, the tannin in hardboard and wood can easily pass through acrylic gesso because it is so absorbent. Often stains will keep showing through as you apply multiple layers and will continue to bleed through to the next layer in a seemingly endless cycle. With any wood based support with any dark grain or color, it is best to seal the support first with a non absorbent acrylic material such as GAC100 or acrylic matte medium / binder.

                                    #604249
                                    contumacious
                                    Default

                                        Thanks for all the great info. I bought some unprimed linen and attached the linen to my panels using Lineco Neutral PH PVA, which worked very well.

                                        Now, I’m wondering if I should use the same PVA to size the attached linen before priming with Gamblin Oil Primer or if I can go straight to applying Gesso.

                                        Once more, thanks in advance for any advice.

                                        You should at least size the linen BEFORE you adhere it to the panel, particularly with water based sizes and grounds. Most people size and prime before. Not doing this can cause your panels to warp when the size and primer are applied. You might get away with it for smaller panels, but it is best not to go that route regardless. How big is the panel you are working on now?

                                        Oil based primers / grounds require a size between the fabric and the oil ground so that the oils won’t cause rotting of the fabric. You can use PVA as a size, acrylic mediums, Rabbit Skin Glue, Acrylic Gesso etc. It needs to be thick enough and evenly applied so as to prevent the oils from reaching the fabric fibers. Follow the instructions given for the product you choose.

                                        To avoid confusion here are the commonly used definitions of the terms we are using here. Many are interchangeable terms. The text in parenthesis was added by me. https://www.rexart.com/glossary.html

                                          [*]Size: Material applied to a surface as a penetrating sealer, to alter or lessen its absorbency and isolate it from subsequent coatings. (Some acrylic gessos can be used as a size AND a ground)
                                          [*]Primer: Coating material, usually white, applied to a support to prepare it for painting. (Primer can mean several different things which makes it confusing. Sizing materials are often referred to as primers, gessos and grounds are also called primers by some.)
                                          [*]Ground: Coating material, usually white, applied to a support to make it ready for painting. (Gesso is a ground but not all grounds are gesso)
                                          [*]Gesso: A white (or tinted) ground material for preparing rigid supports for painting. made of a mixture of chalk (or other similar materials), white pigment, and glue (binder). Same name applied to acrylic bound chalk and pigment used on flexible supports as well as rigid. (The key ingredient that makes a ground what we commonly refer to as “gesso” is the chalk / marble dust / calcium carbonate. Oil GROUNDS do not usually have any of that in them and are thus significantly less absorbent.)
                                        #604241
                                        Aravere
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                                            This thread is tremendously helpful and eye-opening. Do you recommend sizing the back of the canvas before gluing to a substrate, or just the front of the canvas?

                                            I do because today I can.
                                            timothychambers.com

                                            #604242
                                            Aravere
                                            Default

                                                Thanks for the great tip!!

                                                Re dry-mounting canvas to a substrate: I talked to the people at Lineco and their technicians said that their “Lineco Neutral PH Adhesive” can be applied, allowed to dry, and then reactivated with a low-heat iron. I like this approach, as it avoids the stress of possible air bubbles showing up when I’ve wet-glued canvas to a substrate. The Lineco Neutral PH Adhesive works like Lamin-All, but it’s cheaper. :)

                                                I do because today I can.
                                                timothychambers.com

                                                #604243
                                                Dcam
                                                Default

                                                    As an Addendum to what has been suggested, when mounting either canvas, or paper for that matter to board, I use a brayer and roll from the middle out to the edges. Then I place a large piece of coffee table glass over the work and barbell plates and leave over night.

                                                    #604253
                                                    fingertrouble
                                                    Default

                                                        You should at least size the linen BEFORE you adhere it to the panel, particularly with water based sizes and grounds. Most people size and prime before. Not doing this can cause your panels to warp when the size and primer are applied. You might get away with it for smaller panels, but it is best not to go that route regardless. How big is the panel you are working on now?

                                                        From what I understand acrylic gesso is similar to that DIY recipe of PVA glue + chalk and it sizes and primes the canvas at the same time?

                                                        So you shouldn’t need to size canvas as well, unless you’re using oil grounds etc.

                                                        I have seen people just use gesso to attach the canvas to a board, makes sense because the gesso is a kind of glue also, as it has to bond securely to the surface to help ‘seal’ it (but also the chalk allows a layer to bond paint to).

                                                        I’m guessing as long as you fix/tape the edges of the canvas tight it shouldn’t come off. Maybe for large boards I would also maybe glue, but for the 14×18″ ones I’m planning I won’t. Lineco is hyper expensive here, I was thinking of doing DIY gesso but it’s an American import so of course all the tutorials mention it as ‘cheap’ but the rest of the world has to either pay through the nose or find something else. Can’t find any other archival PVA that isn’t imported though or in very small expensive bottles.

                                                        Watercolour, Life drawing/painting, pen work, portraits and oils. Getting back into the groove! https://www.tjbaker.co.uk
                                                        #604250
                                                        contumacious
                                                        Default

                                                            From my experience, Acrylic Gesso is not a very good adhesive, particularly on ACM panels. It peals off too easily, perhaps due to the solids in it. I would use acrylic medium without any solids added rather than gesso for an adhesive if I couldn’t get something better like Beva 371 or some other heat activated adhesive. I would also recommend lightly sanding ACM panels then giving them a coat of XIM UMA bonder / primer or something similar (Not acrylic gesso or acrylic medium) before gluing down the primed canvas. This will greatly decrease the risk of it coming loose later. I have had entire sheets literally pop off the ACM panel when they were glued down on un-prepped factory surfaces.

                                                            The problem with sizing / priming after you apply the raw canvas to a LARGE panel is that it can cause the material to contract which might cause bowing of the panel if done after adhering it. Adhering fully primed canvas is a safer method for the big stuff. Not as much of a problem with smaller panels.

                                                            Unless you really want the texture of canvas, I think the whole process of gluing canvas on a panel is a waste of time and money. I don’t like canvas textures showing in my paintings so I rarely adhere canvas to my ACM panels anymore. I paint directly on the primed panel surface. This is my thoroughly tested process:

                                                              [*]Wet sand the ACM Panel with 400 grit until it no longer has a shine to it, but don’t break through the coating.
                                                              [*]Clean with denatured alcohol and wear gloves while handling it after cleaning
                                                              [*]Apply XIM UMA Bonder / Primer – I prefer to spray it on
                                                              [*]Apply your ground if desired such as acrylic gesso or oil ground.

                                                            You can paint directly on the XIM UMA without a ground if you want to. It will accept virtually any type of paint with better adhesion than anything out there that I have tested, but I don’t know how stable the color is over time. It wasn’t designed as a final finish but rather a primer, so any areas not fully covered with paint MIGHT change value / hue over time though I have not noticed that with exposed XIM UMA myself since I started using it. A call to Rustoleum might provide a more definitive answer.

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