Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum mulling paint: vacuum bodied linseed vs. poppy vs. walnut

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 75 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #992063
    Dr. Feelgood
    Default

        I am about to mull a great deal of paint. I have my respirator mask, muller, pigments, etc. I want opinions, information or articles on what the pros and cons of using these oils or even combining the oils to mull pigment in. Some questions I have not been able to get a straight answer on:

        1. Does poppy really produce paint that wrinkles in thick application, or that is inferior. It seems that if these rumors are not true, that the fact that it does not change the color of the pigments should make it the superior medium.

        2. Would mixing poppy and walnut and vacuum bodied linseed make an excellent medium to fix the problems?

        3. Is it true that poppy never truly dries or that it stays unstable? This, obviously, is of great concern to me.

        4. Do any of these affect lightfastness?

        5. What are your preferences and why? I am trying to mull paint with the heaviest pigmentation, lightfastness, thickness (think paste) and color vibrancy that I can with minimal yellowing and maximal longevity and stability (no cracking, wrinkling, etc.).
        So, all suggestions are welcomed and appreciated, especially from experienced paint connoisseurs like gunzorro who may even have color charts to back these opinions. Thanks to all.

        #1208183
        Don Ketchek
        Default

            From Virgil Elliott’s book “Traditional Oil Painting:”

            Linseed oil produces the strongest paint film, with the greatest resistance to cracking. Paints ground in linseed oil are also less apt to be adulterated with driers, as linseed oil dries better than the other oils. As a trade-off for its superior film strength and durability, linseed oil has a tendency to yellow with age. The yellowing is most pronounced on short-term aging, however, and begins to reverse itself in a few years in normal lighting. Exposure to sunlight for two or three half-days in a row will bleach the initial yellowing appreciably.

            And:

            It is misguided to favor poppy oil over linseed oil out of concern over yellowing, as the differences in yellowing between the two are negligible after a few years; poppy oil is also much more prone to cracking. Safflower is superior to linseed and poppy oil in its resistance to yellowing; its film strength is not as great as that of linseed oil, although perhaps it is better than poppy oil. Poppy and safflower oils dry slowly and require the addition of driers during manufacture to produce a paint that will dry at an acceptable rate.

            Hope this helps,

            Don

            #1208243
            kylesurges
            Default

                In my opinion its best to stick with linseed and/or walnut oil in paints and mediums. I’ve never tried any paints made from poppy oil because I’m fended off from information about added driers in it and the weak film it creates :eek:

                I avoid safflower oil too, but sometimes its difficult. Winsor & Newton and others now likes to add safflower oil to pigments where yellowing wouldn’t even be noticeable. I don’t get it.

                #1208247
                jetflair
                Default

                    If I ever try it I will use water-washed linseed oil from The Art Treehouse. I use it in medium and its wonderful stuff.

                    #1208176
                    WFMartin
                    Default

                        I have no basis of fact to back up my opinion on Poppyseed Oil, but personally I try to avoid any paint whose binder is primarily Poppyseed Oil. I have heard [and I do not remember the source(s)] that Poppyseed Oil never truly dries, but goes into some sort of a “hardened-gel” state.

                        I don’t wish my painted pieces to be subjected to this sort of condition. It is much too easy to employ only Linseed Oil and Walnut Oil in my paints, and medium that I don’t feel that it is worth taking the chance with Poppyseed Oil, even if the allegations regarding it are not true.:D

                        wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                        https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                        #1208193
                        Alan P. in OC
                        Default

                            At least 40-50% of my paints are Blockx, which uses poppy oil in most of its paints. The paints are absolutely beautiful and smooth, and since I both paint on cradled panels and use a medium with stand oil, the paint film is as hard as any other.

                            I don’t mull paint but with my style, medium, and painting substrate, my poppy oil paints work just fine:).

                            #1208216
                            joshuaw
                            Default

                                This is likely a point in contention, and what I give you here is a result of my reading and testing, albeit I’m not a scientist, conservator, and have no previous publishing credits, and undoubtedly many will disagree with me, but I say “it depends”. Will you be laying paint in layers? Alla prima? Do you care about yellowing? Will you be using any mediums that might help to form durable or flexible layers (stand oil, certain alkyds, etc.)? If you don’t care about yellowing, the answer is easy: linseed oil – it dries firm, flexible, faster than the other oils, is time tested, and cheaper. If yellowing does concern you, I offer you the following generalized suggestion: warm colors (red, orange, yellow) and earths (natural and iron oxides) blacks, and most if not all greens, should be bound with linseed (as the yellowing won’t be perceived, and for the reasons mentioned above). I would bind two types of whites: one with linseed and another with safflower with maybe some walnut oil added. The first for painting under layers and the second for top layers (though I would suggest using good flexible/durable mediums with such top layers). For the same reasoning, cool colors should be bound with walnut, safflower, or a blend thereof depending if you will use such colors throughout paint layers or glaze/scumble them into your last layers. Walnut being theoretically more durable than safflower and thereby better suited for painting throughout paint layers yet theoretically more yellowing than safflower. If you want to use heat bodied oils I suppose that would be ideal, but you will likely have some difficulty mulling them and may not suit you in the way of consistency. I put safflower in place of poppy based on charts showing higher weight gain and retention (oxidation) than poppy oil. I am assuming you’ve already done some homework on the chemical make up of these different oils, and if not i suggest you read up on linolenic linoleic oleic percentages and what such levels mean. On the subject of wrinkling: theoretically all oils will wrinkle at some threshold if painted thick enough, but linseed has arguably the highest propensity for it as it oxidizes at the greatest and most dramatic rate. Wrinkling though should be attributed to operator error: a painter not knowing his/her materials versus a fault of the paint.

                                #1208190
                                Red 9
                                Default

                                    If I was to mull my own paint I’d use walnut for all non earth colors, linseed for earths, and a poppy/walnut mix for the whites. There is no scientific reason behind this lol, just based on personal preference/experience.

                                    {Like Alan, I have had good experiences with Blockx poppy colors and whites}

                                    #1208194

                                    I also use some Blockx and Charvin oil paints in poppy seed oil and I find it beautiful and pleasant to work with. I use also a medium with Stand oil and these paints dries to a hard film, but those paints dries slower than paints with Linseed oil.

                                    #1208209
                                    Trond
                                    Default

                                        I have no basis of fact to back up my opinion on Poppyseed Oil, but personally I try to avoid any paint whose binder is primarily Poppyseed Oil. I have heard [and I do not remember the source(s)] that Poppyseed Oil never truly dries, but goes into some sort of a “hardened-gel” state.

                                        I don’t wish my painted pieces to be subjected to this sort of condition. It is much too easy to employ only Linseed Oil and Walnut Oil in my paints, and medium that I don’t feel that it is worth taking the chance with Poppyseed Oil, even if the allegations regarding it are not true.:D

                                        I think I can disprove this claim. I had an old palette full of Blockx paints that had been drying for well over a year. The blues (which are ground in poppy oil only) were as solid and hard as glass. Maybe it is more brittle than similarly hard linseed oil? I don’t know, but it is certainly not gel-like. The colors that I have heard turned gel-like were actually ground in safflower oil. The use of poppy oil in painting is much older.

                                        I also think the claim that poppy oil eventually darkens as much as linseed oil is false. Old paintings with poppy or walnut oil often appear to be a bit brighter to my eyes, although both oils will yellow or darken to a certain extent. For instance, Raphael used walnut oil in his blues, and I think it shows. De Laszlo’s paintings also appear to have yellowed less than those of Sargent, even though I think De Laszlo used more oil, and Sargent used more turpentine (De Laszlo pointed out his preference for poppy oil in his book).

                                        I think the main drawback with poppy oil is exactly what we have known all along: it dries very slowly, and this can sometimes lead to problems in layered paintings while it is drying.

                                        #1208222
                                        Dr. Feelgood
                                        Default

                                            To all: those who refer to using other brands such as Blockx, I am not wanting to use other brands, I wish to mull my own paint for the control, the unique quality, and the craft.

                                            WFMartin: I have similar fears, which is why I am inquiring about the addition of vacuum bodied linseed oil to further stabilize the poppy, or if equal mixes of walnut/poppy or poppy/walnut/vacuum bodied linseed could fix the problems while offering greater clarity and less yellowing. I am fully willing to try, but not if there is substantial evidence supporting mostly detriments.

                                            Joshuaw: great info on mixing certain colors with certain oils. It seems you are against poppy compared to safflower, would you say that safflower has better qualities as far as wrinkling and such? I have done the research, but ask these questions to see if real world usage yields contrary or outstanding results rather than just looking at data about the content.

                                            Trond: we meet again haha. I think the qualities of blockx you mention have much to do with their amber additive, although I am not quite sure they use it in their blues. So, are you saying that historically poppy seems to not only be sound, but misrepresented and even better than walnut as a medium?

                                            #1208191
                                            Ron Francis
                                            Default

                                                I have read at one site that poppy oil dries brittle and that it should be mixed with a more flexible oil like linseed.

                                                Stand oil (vacuum bodied) is not suitable for mulling paint, but I don’t know if it is all right to use as a portion of the oil.
                                                I don’t know much about it, but I think it has something to do with its acid number and wetting ability.

                                                Ron
                                                www.RonaldFrancis.com

                                                #1208223
                                                Dr. Feelgood
                                                Default

                                                    Ron: correct, it is more of an additive to give thickness, leveling qualities and stronger film while retaining its color and yellowing less than standard linseed. That is why I was inquiring about the mixture of this with walnut or poppy.

                                                    #1208195

                                                    Here some information about poppy seed oil. Hope it can help you a little bit in your research. Please, note, that the original text is in other language than English and I used translator to translate it, so there can be some mistakes in writing :)

                                                    ” Poppy seed oil for painting is produced by pressing the seeds of white poppy (Papaver somniferum), grown in the Russia, the Netherlands and Central Europe as well as in India, Asia and Iran. Oil content in seeds is 45%, almost colorless, with a pleasant taste and mild odor. Oil hot pressing has a reddish color. Basically it consists of a glyceride of linoleic acid and oleic acid, and since it contains only small amounts of linolenic acid it dries slower than the linseed oil, and also, to a lesser degree of yellowing. This layer poppy oil solidifies within 5-8 days. This slow drying oil film accompanied by a significant decrease in volume, which, together with excessive softness of the film can cause thin deep cracks in the surface layers of oil paint. Therefore, paint, pounded in the poppy oil, less suitable for underpainting, and they can be recommended only for alla prima technique. Poppyseed oil film is softer, easier to melt and dissolve, and therefore paints containing poppy seed oil, are less resistant to solvents than paint binder which is linseed oil; in the case of poppy seed oil, the danger is that the paintings are damaged when cleaning even moderately solvents. According to research Eybnera may occur spontaneously softening completely dried paint.

                                                    Since poppy seed oil does not yellow as linseed, with it mulling white and blue pigments. With pigments that catalytically accelerate the drying (eg, white lead), poppy oil dries properly, and therefore in these cases should not be afraid of incomplete drying paint.
                                                    In contrast, with pigments, catalysts acting as negative, poppy oil virtually no cures, so that the zinc and titanium dioxide, and blacks, kraplak remain tacky even after several months.

                                                    When storing poppy oil rancid after a short time and the free acids produced during this further slows the drying process and, furthermore, promote yellowing. ‘Adding alkaline substances (about 5% powdered lime or soda anhydrous) can prevent rancidity and maintain oil for a long time in a state suitable for consumption. Poppy oil oxidation can easily thicken. Processed in this way oil is used as the binder component of oil-based paints, preferably – in combination with resins that accelerate it too

                                                    slow drying. For example, equal parts condensed poppyseed oil and dammar varnish with a minor amount of beeswax provide a binder that has proved itself in the past. Although poppy seed oil has many valuable properties and with the right treatment with it is not dangerous, it is highly doubtful that pounded him paint colors were equivalent replacement of the old masters of walnut oil, which were later superseded by the commercially available oil paints on a poppy in the tubes.
                                                    Quite expensive poppy oil can be faked with sunflower, cottonseed, and linseed oil. Purity can be partially check by taste, smell, fusibility his films (melts at 120C) and duration of dry time.
                                                    Paints, mulle with poppy oil, already knew the Dutch painters of the XVII century, however, and while in the oil painting mainly used walnut butter. It was only much later, when the production moved from paint shops to factories, walnut oil was completely replaced by poppy oil. “

                                                    #1208184
                                                    Don Ketchek
                                                    Default

                                                        You seem quite intent on using poppy oil despite much evidence that poppy is a slow drier, may need driers added, and certainly doesn’t produce the most sturdy paint layers. There are many paint makers and it is clearly not the oil of choice. I certainly believe Blockx to be a fine line of oil paints, but it is quite possible they use driers – or the addition of the resin makes the paint dry faster – or both.

                                                        A few years back I tested 4 or 5 white paints to see how much they yellow. Alas, I can no longer find the board I used, but my recollection is that only one white paint yellowed noticeably to the point I wouldn’t use it – and that was the white that used poppy oil as the binder (Gamblin’s Radiant White). If I had to guess, I would think that it was the added driers that caused the majority of the yellowing. A couple years ago, I noticed that Gamblin changed the oil binder in their radiant white to safflower.

                                                        My advice would be – try whatever combinations you like. Experiment. It will probably take numerous efforts anyway until you find the correct proportion of oil to pigment and the oils that work best for you. You are at the very beginning stage, so the best research will be own experience.

                                                        Good luck to you. And let us know the results of your research. I’m sure this is where folks like Robert Gamblin and Michael Harding were years ago – trying to make a better paint.

                                                        Don

                                                      Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 75 total)
                                                      • The topic ‘mulling paint: vacuum bodied linseed vs. poppy vs. walnut’ is closed to new replies.