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August 9, 2010 at 3:18 pm #988746
Any comments on differences between final varnishes for acrylic paintings? I assume that the usual suspects (Lascaux, Golden, Winsor) make decent products, but are there differences between them? (Depth, Minimizing glare, Protection, etc)
Not looking to save money, especially here. What’s the best all-around?
August 9, 2010 at 9:05 pm #1142122Hi, welcome to WC and the Acrylics forum.
If you haven’t tried a search yet please do; as we ask in the ***Starting tips and posting guides*** sticky thread:
[b][i]Frequently-asked questions[/i][/b]
If you have a question about something that might have been asked before please try a quick search before starting a new thread.There are many prior threads on what to use for varnish (as well as whether to varnish) with multiple suggestions as to type and brand.
I assume that the usual suspects (Lascaux, Golden, Winsor) make decent products, but are there differences between them? (Depth, Minimizing glare, Protection, etc)
Obviously they’re not going to be all identical – different resins or resin combinations – but the differences aren’t huge within each type. If you’d like to do some research look for what high- and low-molecular-weight resins (HMW and LMW) provide in terms of depth and protection.
Depth is basically a function of gloss, with matt varnishes giving the exact opposite and so forth. Glare is related to gloss generally too, the higher the gloss the more glare is an issue (other factors as well, including texture).
What’s the best all-around?
Definitely no one answer to this, just as there wouldn’t be for best SUV or best hiking boot etc. etc. Most people will have an opinion but it’s often mostly based on personal preferences and individual mileage varies.
Einion
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August 13, 2010 at 2:42 am #1142135Hi, welcome to WC and the Acrylics forum.
There are many prior threads on what to use for varnish (as well as whether to varnish) with multiple suggestions as to type and brand.
Obviously they’re not going to be all identical – different resins or resin combinations – but the differences aren’t huge within each type. If you’d like to do some research look for what high- and low-molecular-weight resins (HMW and LMW) provide in terms of depth and protection.
Definitely no one answer to this, just as there wouldn’t be for best SUV or best hiking boot etc. etc. Most people will have an opinion but it’s often mostly based on personal preferences and individual mileage varies.
Einion
Hi Einion,
Just catching up…a couple busy days. Thanks for the nice welcome. This looks like a cool place.I did search previous threads before posting that question. Turned up some good info, but didn’t quite touch on what I was trying to resolve. And I didn’t find anything specific to the brands I was looking into (I usually just trust Golden, Winsor, and Lascaux). I don’t have any qualms about mixing those particular paint brands when necessary, but the question of varnish seems relatively critical, given the possible impact.
I had also spoken to a very knowledgable Golden tech, who instilled a sense of finality about part of the process. My current understanding:
1: A primary “Iso coat” was recommended for newer work (see below) to seal the underlying acrylic, and help to provide a more permanent surface for the varnish. The relevant Golden product is “Soft Gel, gloss version” thinned 2:1 with water. Gloss was stated specifically in that the final varnish can impart the matte surface if necessary.
2: Varnish over the Iso coat: Either MSA Mineral Spirit Acrylic (recommended), or Golden Acrylic Polymer Varnish. This coat is presumably removable.
I’m no beginner at painting, but have limited experience with the varnish process, so a couple things are intimidating:
Re 1: The iso coat sounds very final. No removing it if something hazes or goes wrong in application.
Re 2: I’ve never considered putting mineral spirits on a painting. I trust that this is safe, as I’ve noticed that you use it, but this would be a first for that. I understand that the objective is that the varnish could be removed later with mineral spirits. However the Golden tech impressed the importance of using pure mineral spirits. And Golden does not sell that. So I’m also looking for a reliable brand.
The Golden Acrylic Polymer Varnish was mentioned as a second preference, with ammonia as the removal agent.
To complicate things… I have some much older acrylic paintings that I had ‘varnished’ with matte medium, on the recommendation of (I believe) Liquitex. That’s just straight matte medium, not varnish specifically. I found the surface a bit hazy, and I’m not real happy about that, given the nature of the paintings (mostly fine detailed pseudo-realistic). I have a feeling that the Iso coat will not react well with the matte medium layer, so I’m still trying to decide what to do there. No way to duplicate that surface for testing, as I don’t even remember the exact matte medium.
And last, re varnish brands: I know it’s not necessary to stay with the same brand as the paint colors used. But Lascaux has a terrific reputation, and I figured that any crucial step will merit the best quality available. On the other hand, I’ve never found any state-side reps or techs that could provide info on Lascaux products (anyone know?). Golden has some really helpful, responsive techs online. So there’s the tradeoff.
I would not be quite so hesitant except for the nature of most of the paintings. If they were quickly dashed landscapes, I’d not be as hesitant to roll the dice.
So there’s the long-winded version.
Are you normally using the iso coat? If you’ve had no problems with the MSA varnish, can you recommend a good vendor for pure mineral spirits? August 15, 2010 at 11:03 am #1142133I like Golden and I use an isolation coat. I use the polymer varnish but my oldest varnished paintings are probably about five years old so it may be too early to appreciate the varnish.
I agree about Goldens’ ability and willingness to help. They are the best!
Good luck, GregAugust 16, 2010 at 3:20 am #1142136I like Golden and I use an isolation coat. I use the polymer varnish but my oldest varnished paintings are probably about five years old so it may be too early to appreciate the varnish.
I agree about Goldens’ ability and willingness to help. They are the best!
Good luck, GregHi Greg,
At only 5 years, I don’t suppose you’ve had occasion to remove the varnish layer yet… That’s one of the things I was concerned about.
Are you using the Polymer Varnish, or the MSA (Mineral Spirits) version?
August 16, 2010 at 2:12 pm #1142134Yea, that’s true. I hope I never have to but if I do I” use Goldens’ recommendations.
As to your hazy finish, I remember one time having a finish get hazy on me and another coat of varnish took it away. If I were going to try this I would try it in a small corner or try to replicate the condition on a scrap.
I use the Polymer varnish, I don’t want to mess with MSA in my apartment.August 16, 2010 at 2:39 pm #1142126Any comments on differences between final varnishes for acrylic paintings? I assume that the usual suspects (Lascaux, Golden, Winsor) make decent products, but are there differences between them? (Depth, Minimizing glare, Protection, etc)
Not looking to save money, especially here. What’s the best all-around?
Robert Gamblin’s Gamvar is an unusual product. It was formulated in collaboration with the chief conservation scientist at the National Gallery of Art, who had special expertise in resin chemistry. It can be removed with milder solvents than the solvent-based (MSA) varnishes. It can be removed with Gamsol, a relatively non-toxic and mild solvent.
The styrenes in Gamvar also have much lower molecular weights than the acrylics in the MSA-type varnishes[/COLOR]. Gamvar conforms better (or more precisely) to the surface details of the painting, which can be an advantage in some cases.
It also has a different index of refraction, and gives a different appearance. Colors tend to look richer, more intense or saturated.
It also (when applied thinly) does not have as many issues in relation to ‘blocking’ (bonding, sticking, tackiness, becoming glued to other surfaces); and it is less likely to incorporate (embed, swallow) dirt, dust, and other particles that come to rest on the surface of the varnished painting.
***
Gamvar would probably change the appearance of the matte finish you mentioned above. You could try a small test area, and remove it with Gamsol if you were not satisfied with it. The Gamsol will not remove the matte layer underneath — it will only remove the Gamvar.***
W&N Conserv-Art Varnish is also an unusual product. It has been formulated to minimize cross-linking, to remain relatively clear and eliminate the tendency of most other varnishes to become progressively more difficult to remove over time.***
Golden’s Hard MSA Varnish is harder than the other MSA varnishes, and forms a tighter or less porous layer; but it can only be used on non-flexible surfaces such as masonite panels.***
Relatively non-yellowing polyurethane varnishes, such as the ones made by Chroma (Jo Sonja), are tougher and more scrubbable than acrylic varnishes, and they form a more complete seal. Issues related to removal are too involved to go into here, except to say that conservation scientists say that fifty or a hundred years from now it will be a different world, with radically improved technologies and methods.Anti-graffiti coating strategies often take the road of superior durability, thoroughness of sealing, minimal porosity, and cleanability over superior removability. (Personally, I prefer this approach.)
Most polyurethanes, like Hard MSA Varnish, should only be used on non-flexible surfaces.
August 16, 2010 at 3:41 pm #1142123I’m no beginner at painting, but have limited experience with the varnish process, so a couple things are intimidating:
Re 1: The iso coat sounds very final. No removing it if something hazes or goes wrong in application.
Yep!
While there’s no denying that an isolation coat provides extra protection (duh) it’s not essential and IMO it should be considered an option, not something set in stone. Obviously some people aren’t going to apply one anyway but the extra potential for problems is not something to downplay.
Re 2: I’ve never considered putting mineral spirits on a painting. I trust that this is safe…
Completely (although obviously protect yourself from the solvent vapour).
To complicate things… I have some much older acrylic paintings that I had ‘varnished’ with matte medium, on the recommendation of (I believe) Liquitex. That’s just straight matte medium, not varnish specifically. I found the surface a bit hazy, and I’m not real happy about that, given the nature of the paintings (mostly fine detailed pseudo-realistic). I have a feeling that the Iso coat will not react well with the matte medium layer, so I’m still trying to decide what to do there. No way to duplicate that surface for testing, as I don’t even remember the exact matte medium.
Although within reason matt medium = matt medium these do pose a problem, no doubt about it.
Ideally (after cleaning) you’d want to establish a gloss finish with a coating that would fully ‘wet’ the irregular surface of the matt layer but this is obviously a lot easier said than done. There may be nothing that can reliably be done with these so it might be best to leave them as they are and keep your fingers crossed.
I would not be quite so hesitant except for the nature of most of the paintings. If they were quickly dashed landscapes, I’d not be as hesitant to roll the dice.
If you do want to go ahead on older pieces try the procedure on test pieces. Varnishing isn’t something that you’d want to do first on anything you consider valuable (although if you did you wouldn’t be the first :lol:).
Are you normally using the iso coat?
I don’t, no.
…can you recommend a good vendor for pure mineral spirits?
Hardware stuff is fine.
If the smell or toxicity of regular mineral spirits is an issue some spirit-borne varnishes might be thinned with low-odour varieties (OMS) although you’d want to check first to be sure. They may not be strong enough to soften or remove the varnish when dry though.
I’m glad Nilesh brought up Gamvar as it’s is well worth considering for acrylic paintings (it’s mentioned in a couple of older threads that I refer to above).
Last bit on this:
But Lascaux has a terrific reputation, and I figured that any crucial step will merit the best quality available.
FWIW – Lascaux’s reputation is just that – a reputation – and like a verbal agreement it’s worth the paper it’s printed on. To give a related example, W&N have a very good reputation in certain areas (quality of pigments for example) but they’re guilty of producing outright fugitive paints in the past.
Different people with different experiences of a company’s products would have differing views on what their reputation is and good or bad much of it is merely an opinion, based in part on emotional response (just like with favourite car, hiking boot or whatever).
Einion
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August 16, 2010 at 3:42 pm #1142124Relatively non-yellowing polyurethane varnishes, such as the ones made by Chroma (Jo Sonja), are tougher and more scrubbable than acrylic varnishes, and they form a more complete seal. Issues related to removal are too involved to go into here, except to say that conservation scientists say that fifty or a hundred years from now it will be a different world, with radically improved technologies and methods.
This is giving too little weight to the problem – currently for all intents and purposes polyurethane varnishes are simply not removable without great risk to the acrylic paint layer.
Einion
Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?
Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk
August 16, 2010 at 4:08 pm #1142127Conservators have successfully removed polyurethanes, so to say that they are simply non-removable is incorrect. The danger to the underpainting would certainly depend on care, skill level and technique, and on the nature of the layers underneath. And it is not difficult, as conservators have mentioned, to see the steady advances in conservation science and technologies. Significant changes and improvements are likely, they say, in five years, and more so in ten years, and twenty years — and even more radically so in forty, sixty, eighty, a hundred years.
There is also this countervailing factor: likelihood of need to remove. This is one reason, among others, why the strategy mentioned above is often chosen in the case of anti-graffiti coatings. And it has proven itself to be effective and practical.
To say that there is no danger to the underlayers when removing MSA-type varnishes would also be incorrect. Conservation scientists have written many articles on this subject, and Winsor and Newton chemistry experts have addressed the issue in their formulation of Conserv-Art Varnish.
Gamvar’s ability to be removed with Gamsol also addresses this issue.
There is also less danger to the underlayers because of the superior protection and impermeability of the polyurethanes:
Yes, MSA Varnishes are formulated to be removable; but not all fluids and stains and micro-debris will find (and obey) a ‘do not proceed further’ sign when, traveling through the micro-porous varnishes, they reach the interface with the paint layers [or the (non-polyurethane) isolation coat layers], which are themselves quite porous.
The usual (and usually unexamined) assumption — that the staining or discoloration problems are solved by simply removing these sorts of varnishes — is flawed. What happens if the stains, discolorations, microparticles, etc. reach the layers underneath?
One acrylic manufacturer explained to me how moisture often carries along with it (into and through the pores) various dissolved substances and microscopic rubbish (as he put it), which can not only in themselves cause problems, but can (and do) also provide nourishment for a variety of microorganisms, including bacteria and molds, which result in various effects and residues of their own.
Superior protection against mechanical damage is also a factor.
Lack of embedded particles (a significant factor); lack of porosity (also significant); superior toughness, protection and durability (…); lower subjection to the effects of cleaning and abrasion, etc. — all favor the quality polyurethanes.
August 16, 2010 at 4:36 pm #1142128Any comments on differences between final varnishes for acrylic paintings? I assume that the usual suspects (Lascaux, Golden, Winsor) make decent products, but are there differences between them? (Depth, Minimizing glare, Protection, etc)
This might have some information for you:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1506186
The author is the same chief conservation scientist and resin-chemistry specialist mentioned above, with whom Robert Gamblin collaborated when formulating Gamvar.
August 17, 2010 at 3:13 am #1142125Conservators have successfully removed polyurethanes, so to say that they are simply non-removable is incorrect.
I didn’t say that. I went through this at length in your previous thread and in the first point of my summary post.
I’ve successfully removed polyurethanes, but the procedures I used (had to use) are not anything you’d want to subject a painting to!
To say that there is no danger to the underlayers when removing MSA-type varnishes would also be incorrect.
Nobody made that claim and by comparison the danger is absolutely insignificant anyway.
…
Mod hat on: what I’d like you to do is directly address the issue of what solvents are necessary to solve dried polyurethane instead of skirting around it. Since you started your pro-polyurethane campaign I don’t recall that you’ve stated what solvent(s) is/are necessary to soften or dissolve polyurethane varnish, despite this being one of the key issues in relation to their suitability as a fine-art varnish.
As I’ve said before: the fact that they are not marketed as varnish for paintings alone is very telling, other information notwithstanding.
Einion
Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?
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August 28, 2010 at 5:57 am #1142137While there’s no denying that an isolation coat provides extra protection (duh) it’s not essential and IMO it should be considered an option, not something set in stone. Obviously some people aren’t going to apply one anyway but the extra potential for problems is not something to downplay.
…
Ideally (after cleaning) you’d want to establish a gloss finish with a coating that would fully ‘wet’ the irregular surface of the matt layer but this is obviously a lot easier said than done. There may be nothing that can reliably be done with these so it might be best to leave them as they are and keep your fingers crossed.
I’m glad Nilesh brought up Gamvar as it’s is well worth considering for acrylic paintings (it’s mentioned in a couple of older threads that I refer to above).Thought I’d post a quick followup. I did read through all the posts and picked up the gist of the subject, at least enough to do further research. I ended up buying Gamblin Gamar and their mineral spirits. I didn’t want to risk impurities in generic mineral spirits–I believe it is supposed to be hexanes but the tech at Golden warned that some brands could have other solvents. (“Odorless” usually implies that those were mostly distilled out, but I still didn’t trust them). I think your comments above re ‘final seal coat’ are applicable to my older paintings. Too many variables, so I’m going to skip that.
I haven’t had a chance to check the Gamar, but I’ll post if I find any problems.
FWIW – Lascaux’s reputation is just that – a reputation – and like a verbal agreement it’s worth the paper it’s printed on. To give a related example, W&N have a very good reputation in certain areas (quality of pigments for example) but they’re guilty of producing outright fugitive paints in the past.
EinionUsed to be that I didn’t trust Golden (I don’t remember why…probably bad experience with something early on). I used W&N acrylics for most everything. Just noticed on Handprint.com that W&N’s anthraquinone pigment in Alizarin crimson may not be completely light-safe. But the overviews of other manufacturers and pigments there leaves no one unscathed. I think W&N is still great overall, but I’ve gained a lot of trust in Golden as well. I just don’t think I’d go with Golden’s varnish method. W&N and Gamblin both seem to have a better handle on it, from what I’ve read so far.
Anyway, thanks for the comments and references in the thread. Very helpful!
March 16, 2021 at 8:25 am #1392523Hi All,
Another contender to those previously mentioned is Artisan Varnish by Winsor Newton. I know that it is normally used for Artisan Water Mixable Oil Colour, but I had some left over and wondered if I could use it on acrylics. I looked up Winsor Newton, and according to their website:
“Painters not wishing to use solvents can use water-based varnishes, which consist of acrylic resins dissolved in water. These can be used on paintings done in acrylic, or with our Artisan Water Mixable Oil Colour.
“Water-based varnishes can be cleaned up while wet using soap and water and removed from brushes or paintings when dry with Galeria Varnish Remover or Artisan Water Mixable Varnish Remover. Winsor & Newton water-based varnishes include:
Artisan Water Mixable Gloss Varnish
Artisan Water Mixable Matt Varnish
Artisan Water Mixable Satin VarnishThe full reference is:
The difference between solvent-based and water-based varnishes
I tried the Artisan Matt Varnish on some matte acrylic paintings. The finish was quite matte and did not change the look of the painting. I had previously tried Liquitex Matte Varnish and was unhappy with the results. The Liquitex was difficult to work with, and the results seemed to change the look of the painting. There is also a Artisan Water Mixable Varnish Remover, but I have not tried that as yet.
Well, good luck everyone.
Gwen
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