Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum OH Carmin lake extra vs Alizarin crimson lake extra

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  • #993519
    Hazyview
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        OK, so these both have PV19-PR177-PBR23 listed on the OH site as the pigments. For the life of me I cant pick the difference from the online swatches. thinking that it was my eyes at the center of the problem, I even loaded dickblick swatches into Gimp and measured the hue angle – yep the same (Alizarin crimson lake extra 358, Carmin lake extra 357). So, anybody know if these paints are actually different in any way??

        #1241264

        They are different.

        Alizarin Crimson Lake Extra
        This color contains the following pigments:

        PR177—Anthraquinone Red
        PV19—Quinacridone Violet
        PBr23—Van Dyke Brown

        Carmine Lake Extra
        This color contains the following pigments:

        PR19—Quinacridone Red
        PR177—Anthraquinone Red
        PBr23—Van Dyke Brown

        PR19 and PV19 are different pigments.

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        #1241284
        Hazyview
        Default

            Right, so are you getting this information off the tubes? is it just a typo on their website? both the drying time pigment info page and the swatches page has PV19. pigments aside can you detect a difference in these two paints?

            #1241305
            savras
            Default

                Right, so are you getting this information off the tubes? is it just a typo on their website? both the drying time pigment info page and the swatches page has PV19. pigments aside can you detect a difference in these two paints?

                I have got painted color chart and it lists the same pigments for both: PV19, PR177, PBr23.

                According to ArtIsCreation PR19 is an obsolete pigment no brand uses.

                #1241265
                Mythrill
                Default

                    Are you sure PR19 is not a mistake?

                    #1241273
                    Anonymous

                        Blick also lists Carmine Lake as having PR19:

                        Quinacridone Red is a high performance, transparent pigment with an average drying time and uneven dispersal. It is another name for Quinacridone Violet (PV19) and Quinacridone Red (PR192). Quinacridone pigments have relatively low tinting strength in general. For this reason, quinacridone colors are often expensive, because more pigment is required in the formulation.

                        Here is one source of this pigment.

                        Gamblin 1980 Quinacridone red oil paint is listed as PR19 by Gamblin and by vendors.

                        #1241279
                        Gigalot
                        Default

                            [URL=http://www.dickblick.com/items/00495-3150/#PR19]Blick[/URL] also lists Carmine Lake as having PR19:

                            [URL=http://www.cornelissen.com/quinacridone-red-pigment.html]Here is one source[/URL] of this pigment.

                            [URL=http://www.gamblincolors.com/1980/docs/Gamblin_1980_color_chart.pdf]Gamblin 1980 Quinacridone red[/URL] oil paint is listed as PR19 by Gamblin and by[URL=http://www.theoilpaintstore.com/category.php?id_category=10601] vendors.[/URL]

                            PR19 is azometine red. I guess, it is a typo. Quinacridone red is PR209 or PR192

                            #1241274
                            Anonymous

                                It doesn’t matter if it is a mistaken name or if they are the same because even if they are using the very same pigments, the blend of the pigments can be very different and thus result in very different tube colors. In addition, the shades of the individual pigments can vary tremendously, such as it does for PR101 which can be orange, red, violet or brown. I have a PB29 that is a light green shade cobalt blue hue, and I have a PB29 that is a much darker violet shade ultramarine blue.
                                online swatches can also be in error or just poor reproductions of the actual paint color in real life.

                                #1241306
                                savras
                                Default

                                    Quinacridone red is PR209 or PR192

                                    It is also PV19 (PV19 has 3 varieties red, rose & violet).

                                    Here is table showing pigments and some other info about OH paints:

                                    http://www.oldholland.com/en/products/classic-oil-colours/drying-time/

                                    It had some typos few years ago but it seems to be fine right now.

                                    #1241285
                                    Hazyview
                                    Default

                                        I guess I will take it on faith that the carmin is a cooler mix as per usual. But the question remains why they charge so much more for the carmin when the mix must at least be very close.

                                        #1241275
                                        Anonymous

                                            I think that the most expensive pigment in that group is PR177, so if carmine contains something like twice as much of that pigment as the other, then that could be a possibility.

                                            #1241286
                                            Hazyview
                                            Default

                                                Sound point Sidbledosoe, perhaps the costing is in the relative proportion of the pigments or pigment load. But, if the carmin is more blue shifted than it should have relatively more PV19 ?! Perhaps it lies in the PBR23 to PR177 ratio.

                                                #1241307
                                                savras
                                                Default

                                                    OH PV19 is series E (alongside cobalts and cadmium reds):

                                                    E29 Scheveningen rose deep
                                                    E30 Scheveningen violet

                                                    Wheras PR177 is series D:

                                                    D166 Burgundy wine red

                                                    As you concluded Carmin Lake Extra must have more PV19 which is in higher pice group. Therefore the paint is more expensive than Alizarin Crimson Lake Extra.

                                                    #1241276
                                                    Anonymous

                                                        There must be more to it than the tube/pigment for the pricing, there is also content, pigment source differences in pricing, and maybe other factors. Winsor Newton’s Perm Aliz Crimson is PR177 and costs $21.95 at Blick, and their Perm Rose is PV19 only costs $10.19, each are 37 ml tubes. Or maybe the PR19 is for real and it really is one or both of these quinacridone pigments that is more expensive.

                                                        PR19…It is another name for Quinacridone Violet (PV19) and Quinacridone Red (PR192).

                                                        Old Holland is famous for making a number of multiple pigment mixes and lots of tube colors. Only Old Holland really knows exactly what they are doing and ultimately, as the phrase goes, it just is what it is.

                                                        #1241287
                                                        Hazyview
                                                        Default

                                                            Yes, OH who bring us “windmill-cold-pressed-linseed-oil”. They wouldn’t be trying to sell us something that we don’t really need would they? Well I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. My conclusion is that there isn’t much between these colors. Perhaps a degree or two hue shift, which isn’t much less than you would expect given dividing 360 by the number of colours that they offer. I guess I will get the less costly one…..

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