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  • #993384
    Blenheim
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        I have a question after watching a Mark Carder video on colours.

        He suggested you not use any white in your shadow colours?

        I paint in layers and on my grey layer I often use various shades of grey for my shadow colours. Which of course have white in them dark layers or how else could I get grey

        Am I missing something here?
        I know some shadows are darker to the object and some get lighter.

        Thanks

        Stewart
        #1238297
        tuzigoot
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            Could be he’s wrong.
            But now that I thinkk of it, I don’t use much white in my shadows. Instead use mostly transparent colors which can allow whatever is underneath to come through. But shadows in the distance, for me, usually must have some white in them.
            I don’t normally paint in layers, so can’t speak to that.

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            #1238294
            AllisonR
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                I think it is a guideline, not a rule written in either stone or blood. But is it a good guideline? For me, yes, I think so, or at least I generally go by it. But again, not in stone or blood. In general, I try to not use white in my shadows. Shadows are airy, transparent, or at least translucent…. White adds mass – the opposite. But do I ever get some white in a shadow, yes. And yes, in my grisaille level as well, with my grey, if it is a medium shadow, not the darkest dark shadows. In my color layers, I would rather use two or three hues to make the shadow color, none white. And if it needs to be lighter, than using a light hue instead of white, perhaps a yellow or a cool blue or a lake color.

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                #1238298
                Blenheim
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                    Thanks all.

                    I think when you are doing colour work adding white could be a problem.

                    With the grey underpainting you have some very dark grey in the shadow areas.

                    Then I try to add transparent colour to the shadows.

                    But to get a grey underpainting I think you have to add white or some white to make a dark grey

                    Stewart
                    #1238305

                    If it calls for a mid-tone grey from some bouncing light source or something, I’m definitely using white to move the value around, albeit a very small amount.

                    Mark is usually a cool dude about responding to questions too.

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                    #1238296

                    How would your paint clouds or snow, or many other white objects without using white in the shadows? Mark Carder seems to paint mainly portraits and still lives. I could not find a painting of clouds by him on Google.

                    Aldro Hibbard

                    [ATTACH]829063[/ATTACH]

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                    #1238306
                    Nanana
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                        He suggested you not use any white in your shadow colours?

                        Unless all his paintings are indoor scenes lighted with a spotlight, this makes no sense.

                        If the surface the shadow falls onto is light and you have a lot of ambient lighting, your shadow is much lighter than what you get from tube color.

                        How does he make his shadow colors lighter if he doesn’t use white? Magic?

                        #1238307
                        Nanana
                        Default

                            How would your paint clouds or snow, or many other white objects without using white in the shadows? Mark Carder seems to paint mainly portraits and still lives. I could not find a painting of clouds by him on Google.

                            Aldro Hibbard

                            [ATTACH]829063[/ATTACH]

                            And it happens indoors too.

                            How would he paint these shadows without white? It’s impossible.

                            There’s no pigment that is as light as that shadow unless it’s a mixture with titanium or zinc white.

                            #1238308
                            Nanana
                            Default

                                I think it is a guideline, not a rule written in either stone or blood. But is it a good guideline? For me, yes, I think so, or at least I generally go by it. But again, not in stone or blood. In general, I try to not use white in my shadows. Shadows are airy, transparent, or at least translucent…. White adds mass – the opposite.

                                How are shadows transparent, it’s simply the absence of direct light.

                                #1238290

                                You need the correct VALUE, with or without white.

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                                #1238303
                                sabana
                                Default

                                    Not sure Mark has ever said this. He does say not to ‘milk’your shadows with nearby brushtrokes to lighten them. This will ruin the painting.

                                    In relation to transparency of shadows. Shadows are best painted with a build up of ‘transparent’ colours. This indeed does give them there subtle airyness. Both Rembrandt and Sargent used transparent colours like this to name but a few.

                                    #1238309
                                    Nanana
                                    Default

                                        Shadows are best painted with a build up of ‘transparent’ colours.

                                        Rembrandt used transparent colours like this to name but a few.

                                        baloney, Rembrandt painted shadows with thick full body paint, if you stand in front of his paintings you can easily tell

                                        the idea that you can’t use white in your shadow is another one of those unsubstantiated ideas that people make up on the fly

                                        Rembrandt used white, lots of it.

                                        “Rembrandt used impastos to accentuate shadows on surfaces facing away from the light source. Rembrandt’s paintings shows an affinity with the method of Titian, who was the first to use thickly applied and dragged impasto. ”

                                        http://webartacademy.com/the-impasto-technique-of-rembrandt

                                        He does say not to ‘milk’your shadows.

                                        what does “milking shadows” even mean
                                        .

                                        #1238304
                                        sabana
                                        Default

                                            Not wishing to debate this Nanana. Its well known Rembrandt was a master of shadows. And if you study his pigments they were transparent. End of. The impasto was used in the highlights.

                                            If you dont see shadows as transparent (oil and watercolour) then I cant help you.

                                            #1238310
                                            Nanana
                                            Default

                                                if you study his pigments they were transparent

                                                Not true, Rembrandt used many opaque pigments. Lead-tin yellow, more opaque than cadmiums are now, Lead-white, Red ochres, yellow ochres, etc.

                                                And many of his shadows in his paintings are clearly thick layers of impasto with white in them. Not the “transparent layers of paint” you say.

                                                If you dont see shadows as transparent then I cant help you.

                                                I don’t, shadows are the absence of direct light, they have nothing to do with transparency.

                                                There is no reason at all why you can’t paint shadows with opaque pigments or white.
                                                .

                                                #1238291

                                                none of it really matters, transparency, color, or impasto, if the values aren’t correct…

                                                Lady Mars Orange Marmalade Stapleford
                                                Moderator: OIls, Pastels, Plein Air

                                                Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. -Oscar Wilde

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