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  • #993156
    Saskia
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        Hello Everyone,

        I have not posted much in the oil forum, but I began painting in oils twenty-something years ago. I took a break for several years, and then two years ago I started again. I don’t always have as much time to devote to art as I would like due to my work, but I am off this summer, so I will probably be hanging around here a lot. It’s exciting to finally have some painting time!

        Anyway, I came across a curious blog post, and wanted to see if I could get some input. The post is here[/URL], and it is all about how M. Graham paints are better for you than other paints because they don’t use toxins in their base. It quotes someone named Michael Pearce as saying, “If you love your liver, use M. Graham paints.”

        Well, I wondered about this, since I didn’t think the use of volatile inhalants in oil paints themselves was a common practice. Am I wrong about this? I am a strange one in that when I first started out, I mixed the paints myself from pigment and oil. When I returned to oils, I myself used M. Graham, simply because I was painting a lot of slow going wet-on-wet at the time and I wanted to use walnut oil. I also use some Vasari and Puro. As it happens, I also run a toxic inhalant-free studio (although I didn’t know I had to look in my paints), and paint with spike lavender and rosemary oil.

        After I saw this, though, I went to Dick Blick and found the MSDS for Windsor and Newton paints, and sure enough, there is an inhalation warning.

        So I guess what I’m wondering is, how common is it to put vaporous toxins in oil paints? I know neither Vasari nor Puro use them . . . what’s with all the hype about M. Graham not doing so? And for those companies that do use them, what exactly are they using, and why?

        Saskia

        C&C is always appreciated.

        #1227995
        Don Ketchek
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            There are no hazardous solvents in regular oil paints whether they are Winsor & Newton, Gamblin, M. Graham or the other brands. (The only exception may be Schminke’s Mussini which contains damar. Alkyd oils do contain some solvent, too).

            It is a great marketing campaign by M. Graham, but they are no different than the other oil paints. What they do have – and at one time was fairly unique – is a solvent free medium – their Walnut Alkyd medium. Now there are a few other solvent free mediums, such as Gamblin’s solvent free gel, but at one time M. Graham’s medium was one of the rare solvent free mediums.

            I looked at the Winsor & Newton MSDS and it says there are no hazardous solvents in their oil paint. The inhalation labeling is a generic description of what to do IF there is an inhalation danger, as far as I can tell.

            Don

            #1228011
            Forestgrass
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                It’s unclear whether this man named Michael Pearce is coming up with that claim or if, in fact, M. Graham is coming up with it. Although M. Graham did invent as DAK723 said above, the first non-toxic medium, I would be surprised the company would make that claim about their oil paint. It would seem the only way to inhale toxins is if you’re sanding dried oil paint without wearing a mask. I live in Portland Oregon area where it’s made and I’ve spoken with Art Graham and I find it hard to believe he would make that claim. I know he did dislike solvents. But as far as I know, Art Graham is no longer the owner but it’s still made in the Portland area and seems like the company isn’t making any different claims about toxicity but I could be mistaken.

                #1228003
                Gigalot
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                    Safflower oil and Walnut oil will emit more toxins when oil dries. Toxic volatile aldehydes and ketones. The oxidation process of oil paint drying produce much more toxins, any little White Spirit addition can give. White Spirit is much less toxic, than Walnut aldehyde and Safflower aldehyde fumes. Probably ten times or hundred times less toxic. This guy, who posted his link is just non-chemist and illiterate ignoramus, Irresponsible stuffer and dishonest advertising forger volunteer.

                    A small quantities of solvent needs to dissolve many additives, which are necessary to make a useful paint. Waxes, stabilizers, driers or even resins must be dissolved into solvent before adding into paints. Removing solvent, you must refuse of all those additives. However, you can prepare Yellow Ochre natural just using oil and pigment. But for Ultramarine and Prussian you MUST add some other components to make a USEFUL PAINT from these problematic pigments. And be sure, oil paint craftsmen spent a lot of time, decades or more, even hundred of years to make an unique paint formulation, with great handling properties, stability into tube, longevity, drying properties and sheen, in which this brainless slacker know just nothing. :evil: Or you are thinking, that Blockx or Michael Harding, or other great craftsmen are stupid?
                    Oil paints can’t be absolutely non-toxic, they are paints and not a sandwich butter. People who prefers creamy butter over oil paint, can go to a supermarket food section instead of Art shop of toxic artists’ grade drugs :lol:

                    He said “If you love your liver, use M. Graham paints.” :eek: If you love your liver, don’t drink much!”

                    #1227999
                    Anonymous

                        how common is it to put vaporous toxins in oil paints? I know neither Vasari nor Puro use them . . . what’s with all the hype about M. Graham not doing so?

                        It is not hype, it is just wrong. Graham paints are not any safer than any other artist oil paints. The binding oils used in oil paints do not give off any toxic fumes. If you have a rare allergic sensitivity to walnut oil, then they would be much worse to use than linseed oil paints.
                        I nearly go into sugar shock sometimes when I read artists gushing about how much better their stuff is than other artist’s stuff, this one put me into high alert.

                        #1228024
                        JCannon
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                            I’m a bit bewildered by all of this. M. Graham makes fine paint, but I may not buy their product again. I’m annoyed by their deceptive advertising.

                            They advertise their paint as “solvent free” because they make it with walnut oil, as opposed to linseed oil. Linseed oil is not turpentine. Linseed oil is an oil, not a solvent. I honestly do not know why so many people have come to believe otherwise.

                            I believe that nearly all tubed oil paint is solvent-free.

                            I don’t consider linseed oil a health risk. People drink the stuff every day for health reasons. Linseed oil is flax seed oil, which is sold as a food supplement. I buy my cold-pressed flax-seed oil from the vitamin section of Walmart. I then clean it, using various methods described online.

                            There may be good reason to prefer walnut oil to any type of linseed oil, but I don’t think that you can argue that walnuts are healthier than flax seeds. (Except in the cases of individuals who have a rare allergy to one or the other.)

                            Claiming that DAK723 is the first non-toxic medium is silly. Centuries ago, quite a few artists used walnut oil or linseed oil as mediums. No toxins involved. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that oil painting predates the industrial production of turpentine or any other solvent.

                            Also, I’m not sold on M. Graham’s walnut oil medium, which is pretty expensive. I buy Spectrum Naturals walnut oil at a large grocery store in Hunt Valley, and it seems to work fine. (That brand has absolutely no additives. All walnuts. One whiff, and you’ll be reliving that classic episode of the Dick Van Dyke Show.)

                            M Graham sells a version of their walnut oil with an alkyd additive to make it dry faster, but this stuff yellows badly, as various online tests have demonstrated. Say what you will about alkyds (opinions vary) but I don’t think that they can be classified as non-toxic.

                            That said, I do have a few tubes of M. Graham paint, and the quality is quite high. But it is no more toxic than Winsor & Newton or any similar brand.

                            #1227996
                            Don Ketchek
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                                In M. Graham’s defense, on their website I do not see any claims that their oil paints are safer than other brands. What they do is endorse solvent free painting and point out that if you use M. Graham paints and mediums, you will be working solvent free as they make only solvent free products. They recommend using their walnut oil to clean up instead of turps or OMS.

                                Earlier I said that they made one of the first mediums that was solvent free. I was using the term medium in its more restricted meaning – a combination of oil, solvent and sometimes a resin. If you include 100% oils in your definition of medium, then, yes, of course, many others have been making solvent free mediums. Since most every other company sells mediums containing solvents, this set M. Graham apart and I think this was one of their advertising claims – use M. Graham products and you will be painting safer. But the oil paint itself is no different or safer.

                                Don

                                #1228004
                                Gigalot
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                                    We can write self-made MSDS for every our oil paintings:

                                    ” I did this my painting masterpiece solvent free, bunny skin free, lead free, nasty Alkyd free, with no Aluminum Stearares addition, on rigid support, using organic, manure refined oils, without petroleum additives or calcined animal bones , using synthetic fur and Taklon-pigs bristle brushes. I did my painting almost edible, at least, edible by termites”
                                    “Toxic components used: 1. Baby oil, LD50 = 3 gallons per human 2. Fels-Naptha Heavy Duty Laundry Bar Soap, LD50=4 Bars per human” :lol:

                                    #1227997
                                    AnnieA
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                                        I agree with Don. If you look at the oil paints page on the M.Graham website, there’s no claim that their paints are made without solvent, only that their mediums are made without solvent and their manufacturing facility is solvent-free.

                                        Why Walnut Oil
                                        We chose to build our oil paint with this oil because its unique refractive index and non-yellowing nature produces color that is more naturally alive and brilliant. In addition walnut oil allows us to increase the amount of pigment in each color, resulting in extraordinary richness, color saturation, brilliance and tinting strength. – See more at: [url]http://mgraham.com/products/oil-paints/#sthash.ywUnnyZZ.dpuf[/url]

                                        They also do mention solvent-free painting:

                                        Solvent Free
                                        Our commitment to the artist extends to their environment. At M. Graham, we have freed ourselves from solvents in our work environment. You can free your studio of dangerous solvents as well. Using walnut oil to clean brushes is a natural way to remove color without creating a solvent hazard.
                                        Learn More »

                                        – See more at: [url]http://mgraham.com/products/oil-paints/#sthash.ph4v7M62.dpuf[/url]

                                        It seems unfair to say that their advertising is deceptive when all they appear to be doing is promoting a healthy and environmentally safe oil painting process – a good thing, imho.

                                        I can’t help but wonder if the idea that they are saying the paints themselves are solvent-free came about from people – likely those lacking knowledge of oil painting in general – reading things into their advertising that simply were not there.

                                        [FONT=Arial]C&C always welcome ©[/I] [/font]
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                                        “Life is a pure flame and we live by an invisible sun within us.” ― Sir Thomas Browne [/size][/font]

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                                        #1228005
                                        Gigalot
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                                            I agree with Don. If you look at the oil paints page on the M.Graham website, there’s no claim that their paints are made without solvent, only that their mediums are made without solvent and their manufacturing facility is solvent-free.
                                            They also do mention solvent-free painting:

                                            And if I am a Mussini paint manufacturer, and my paints must contain solvent, in which Damar resin must be dissolved before adding to a paint, then I must reformulate all my paint manufacturing process to do “solvent free” formula. because panic people or people in panic stopped buying my paints because they are not sure about environmental, toxic free stuff? I will use lawyers to demand compensation by this beast, named Michael Pearce dude, who tried to discredit my paints using more of a suspected for specialists arguments, but with the disastrous propaganda effect on my business by affecting panic men and less experienced men.

                                            #1227992
                                            Delofasht
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                                                I cannot say that the M Graham Co. has tried to discredit anyone or even market their paints in a different manner than others. They bring to light the lack of solvent in their mediums, and also point out it’s benefits, never saying other companies do not do the same or that their product is better.

                                                As far as the paints themselves (and the walnut oil and alkyd medium), they are top notch materials with some of the highest pigment loading I’ve seen (cut with either a custom calcium carbonate medium or white paint to see the comparison to other brands I’d tried over the years). This is all around great for me as I like the consistency out of the tube but also like to adjust the consistency easily with mediums if needed.

                                                The hype I think is that they do manage to do something most do not, promote using only paint and oil to do the painting. Most companies mention using some sort of medium besides oil (often containing solvents). Funny thing about solvents though, is that even water can be considered a solvent. . . if you are dissolving certain kinds of glues (some starch glues are very water soluble).

                                                As for other inhalants in the actual paint itself, I do not remember reading much (beyond Gigalot’s explanations of “toxins” released during the curing process, which is much less than bad for you than breathing a fart even) regarding inhalation issues with just paint. I have however found that I can definitely smell a difference between linseed based paints on my palette and walnut oil based paints. (be it known I have an extremely acute sense of smell)

                                                Hope this helps you some Saskia.

                                                - Delo Delofasht
                                                #1228014
                                                Saskia
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                                                    There are no hazardous solvents in regular oil paints whether they are Winsor & Newton, Gamblin, M. Graham or the other brands. (The only exception may be Schminke’s Mussini which contains damar. Alkyd oils do contain some solvent, too).

                                                    It is a great marketing campaign by M. Graham, but they are no different than the other oil paints. What they do have – and at one time was fairly unique – is a solvent free medium – their Walnut Alkyd medium. Now there are a few other solvent free mediums, such as Gamblin’s solvent free gel, but at one time M. Graham’s medium was one of the rare solvent free mediums.

                                                    I think you are right in that the rumor must have gotten started due to M. Graham’s Walnut Alkyd medium. Maybe people just assumed the paints themselves had solvents in them as well . . . though I don’t know why, since oil paints have been made without them for centuries. As far as I knew nothing had changed, but like I said, I rarely buy tube paints.

                                                    For what it’s worth, I am not suggesting that M. Graham was responsible for this. It is simple misinformation caused by people who have no direct knowledge of the issue, and M. Graham should not be blamed for it.

                                                    I looked at the Winsor & Newton MSDS and it says there are no hazardous solvents in their oil paint. The inhalation labeling is a generic description of what to do IF there is an inhalation danger, as far as I can tell.

                                                    I saw the general inhalation warning at the beginning as well, but I was referring to the Toxicologthatical Information section of the MSDS (section 11), where they specifically say, about the paints themselves, “May cause irritation to the respiratory system.” To me it seems that this is either an error, or they are putting something in there besides linseed oil and pigment. But I agree this is not the MSDS of a paint that used solvents, since there would be an environmental warning there as well, and probably percentages listed. That is why I asked in my initial post about what they are using and why, since I can’t imagine what it could be.

                                                    Whatever the case, I am glad to know the entire paint making process has not changed without my knowledge, and we are still basically dealing with oil and pigment. :thumbsup:

                                                    Saskia

                                                    C&C is always appreciated.

                                                    #1228015
                                                    Saskia
                                                    Default

                                                        Safflower oil and Walnut oil will emit more toxins when oil dries. Toxic volatile aldehydes and ketones. The oxidation process of oil paint drying produce much more toxins, any little White Spirit addition can give. White Spirit is much less toxic, than Walnut aldehyde and Safflower aldehyde fumes. Probably ten times or hundred times less toxic.

                                                        I’m afraid this is also misinformation. Which aldehydes are you referring to? What is your source for this claim? Are you saying they are ten times or a hundred times more toxic . . . because there is a pretty big difference.

                                                        First, not all volatile aldehydes are toxic. Many are used as fragrances, some as flavoring agents. But they do indeed come from drying oils, and not just walnut and safflower, but linseed too. The two most common volatile aldehydes found in drying paints are propanal and hexanal.

                                                        Propanal is toxic (it’s an alcohol), but it is present in far, far smaller quantities in this context than the white spirit vapors.
                                                        The quantities of hexanal are even less. We are talking extremely minute quantities . . . much less irritating exposure than, say, spritzing yourself with perfume. There are NO studies of which I am aware (and I have looked) which even suggest that this could be harmful. If you have seen one, please do reference it.

                                                        As anecdotal evidence, I am quite sensitive to fumes of many kinds, even from perfumes, and being in the same room with mineral spirits will give me a headache. I have yet to suffer any ill effects from drying linseed oil.

                                                        Oil paints can’t be absolutely non-toxic, they are paints and not a sandwich butter. People who prefers creamy butter over oil paint, can go to a supermarket food section instead of Art shop of toxic artists’ grade drugs :lol:

                                                        I think you and I are using different definitions of the word toxic. You in fact can have a non-toxic oil paint, since linseed and walnut oils are non-toxic and many pigments are as well (although who cares about those, if you aren’t planning to grind and snort them). The by-products of a substance reacting with air over time is not a measure of that substance’s toxicity–unless you consider Canola oil toxic as well. Because frying your french fries produces FAR more harmful aldehydes than a drying painting.

                                                        Saskia

                                                        C&C is always appreciated.

                                                        #1228016
                                                        Saskia
                                                        Default

                                                            I cannot say that the M Graham Co. has tried to discredit anyone or even market their paints in a different manner than others. They bring to light the lack of solvent in their mediums, and also point out it’s benefits, never saying other companies do not do the same or that their product is better.

                                                            As far as the paints themselves (and the walnut oil and alkyd medium), they are top notch materials with some of the highest pigment loading I’ve seen (cut with either a custom calcium carbonate medium or white paint to see the comparison to other brands I’d tried over the years). This is all around great for me as I like the consistency out of the tube but also like to adjust the consistency easily with mediums if needed.

                                                            The hype I think is that they do manage to do something most do not, promote using only paint and oil to do the painting. Most companies mention using some sort of medium besides oil (often containing solvents).

                                                            I agree. I love the fact that M. Graham seems to promote avoiding solvents, since I long ago rejected all of them except the essential oils I mentioned. It is amazing to me that the use of harmful chemicals has become so entrenched in the culture of oil painting–to the degree that people still claim they cannot paint with oils because they want to avoid the “risks”–when in fact, the main culprit for toxicity in oils, mineral spirits, is quite a new invention. Oil of spike lavender was good enough for Leonardo, the Flemish Masters, and countless other painters throughout the centuries, and is completely non-toxic to breathe.

                                                            Funny thing about solvents though, is that even water can be considered a solvent. . . if you are dissolving certain kinds of glues (some starch glues are very water soluble).

                                                            Water is the most common solvent there is; in chemistry, it is called the universal solvent. Unfortunately I can’t find a painting medium for which it works well for me . . . I tried watercolor, but I’m useless at it except as a pastel underpainting. All that light to dark stuff, eek! :p

                                                            By the way, it’s good to see you working in oils these days! I remember thinking a long time ago that they would probably suit your style.

                                                            Saskia

                                                            C&C is always appreciated.

                                                            #1228006
                                                            Gigalot
                                                            Default

                                                                Propanal is toxic (it’s an alcohol), but it is present in far, far smaller quantities in this context than the white spirit vapors.
                                                                The quantities of hexanal are even less. We are talking extremely minute quantities . . . much less irritating exposure than, say, spritzing yourself with perfume. There are NO studies of which I am aware (and I have looked) which even suggest that this could be harmful. If you have seen one, please do reference it.

                                                                Try to heat two table spoons of good, one month in open air rancidificated safflower oil, at a temperature about 100-120 Celsius degree. Do it in a kitchen, but close windows and ventilation. I am sure, you will never forget those fumes, which drying oil can emit. Drying Alkyd has less strong odor, but much more irritant for my lungs. I like to keep drying Alkyd paintings as far as possible from my bed room or ,even, from living room. The most pleasant odor has Linseed oil paint. It can also emit strong odor, but linseed oil odor is not as unpleasant.

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