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Old 06-17-2018, 03:50 AM
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Re: General Gough

Something like this.....

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Old 06-18-2018, 08:10 AM
Sarah_the_Flower Sarah_the_Flower is offline
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Re: General Gough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justadude
Harry might be onto something- the perspective of the General appears a bit too low and close for the amount of foreground in the scene, which could be why the flowers don't look right to you. Do you like them any better from a higher-looking perspective? This is a screen grab with the very bottom out of view on my monitor

Hi Paul,

Yes, I do think you're right that the engine is a little too high. It was a conscious decision, as I had intended from the outset to have wildflowers in the foreground. Bit late to alter that now however lol
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:16 AM
Sarah_the_Flower Sarah_the_Flower is offline
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Re: General Gough

Hi Harry,

I see where you're coming from, but I am confident that the perspective of the engine is correct as I traced it from my reference photo. It's hard to follow the top line of the boiler, but I can see it passes through the centre of the flywheel, which does not sit level with the top line of the boiler. Also, your pink line following the underside of the boiler does not follow the line properly. Thanks for the efforts though! To be honest, I'm feel sure that the issue is with the flowers at the bottom. On reflection, I think they go too low and that's what making things look wrong. Also Paul had a good point that the engine is a little too high on the canvas.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:18 AM
Sarah_the_Flower Sarah_the_Flower is offline
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Re: General Gough

Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalSaint
I see an 'unease' in the perspective as well, but I actually think it is an issue with the ground versus the Engine.

::self edit:: I had this whole thing typed out defending the perspective of the engine itself, thinking the whole time that the actual engine had a canopy that sloped backwards. Doing an image search, I see that the canopy is parallel to the ground, so the above vanishing point example describes it well.


I would say however that I also see a perspective issue with the ground vs the Engine as well. The ground appears to slope continuously downward towards the camera, while the Engine looks like it is sitting on flat ground.
Hi - yes, I agree with your analysis. I think it's the flowers.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:58 AM
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Re: General Gough

Quote:
Originally Posted by 123harry
As you can see this has got me intrigued. Here's another way of looking at it......


The image converges before the perspective point on 2 axis because of the cameras lens. As Sarah said she traced the image from a photo and i believe her. It looks like a 28-35mm lens to me. These show moderate distortion(converging lines). This is why copying from photos is risky.

Converging veriticals dont just appear as vertical lines btw. If you flip the image to vertical you will see its still the same phenomenon. They can be on the horizontal axix too.

Last edited by Raffless : 06-18-2018 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:26 AM
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Re: General Gough

Sorry guys, you are wrong.
The perspective is clearly out. I concentrated on the canopy as that is easier to doctor in a mock up. The line I put along the boiler is where the top ought to be rather than where it is. There are still two separate viewpoints. One for the canopy, one for the lower part of the engine.
Can you post the original reference?
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Last edited by 123harry : 06-18-2018 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:09 AM
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Re: General Gough

I think it's kinda missing the main issue(a little bit)

If this is a tracing, or even just a reproduction of the reference photo, the overall issue is that the Engine is placed into an imagined background, or a background from a different reference photo. (I'm taking a leap and guessing this is the case)

What causes it to be 'jarring', is not necessarily the odd perspective of the Engine, but that the perspective of the Engine clashes with the perspective of the environment. The perspective of the engine (though to me it still reads as though the back of the canopy slopes down towards the back wheels) may be correct to the reference image, but because that odd perspective (or lens effect/focal length warping) doesn't continue into the surroundings, it looks out of place.

I just fiddled around with it a tiny bit, really only by changing the horizon.

I 'think' changing the horizon would help with the perspective issue, but it also puts you close to the ground, so the detail in the foreground grass and flowers would need to be adjusted.


Keep in mind, I (and I think the others) are just trying to be helpful, not trying to bring you down! So you are totally in control of telling us to go suck a lemon, if you disagree.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:37 PM
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Re: General Gough

I’ve already done that in my mock up.
I also pushed the tree back to make a bit of space towards the horizon.
The canopy still needs adjusting.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:13 AM
Sarah_the_Flower Sarah_the_Flower is offline
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Re: General Gough

Thanks Saint - actually, I really like the horizon like that. My personal slight problem with that is that I live in a really hilly part of the country and I just don't see sky meeting horizon low down like that (that's just a matter of personal experience of course). You are correct that the landscape is imaginary. I have a collection of reference photos that I'm using.

The tree canopy is brought well in from the right as a device for contrasting the smoke coming from the chimney, so its positioning is a conscious decision.

My instinct here is that the near foreground is the major issue (and was the subject of my initial question, although that seems to have gone out of the window somewhat). I have therefore started work on overpainting the flowers on the left foreground. What I need to do is think carefully about the near foreground: particularly the height and scale of the flowers. They were too big and imposing before. I think I need to treat the foreground more impressionistically (a challenge for me) so that it's not too imposing, keeping the flowers smaller and giving the impression that they are all different heights. They would be about waist height on average. I can't quite decide at the moment how tall they should be in the picture - should stalks rising right in the front of the image reach the engine, for example? I think I might not know until I get there....

Any thoughts appreciated!
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