Home Forums Explore Subjects Figure, The Blackandwhite’s recipe for a conte style sanguine stick

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  • #456877

    This isnt strictly to do with figure drawing, but Blackandwhite pointed us to his page of various art recipes https://engineermeetsart.wordpress.com/
    I immeadiately ordered some plaster of paris and tried the mix today.
    Using a 1:2 mix gave a rather hard result but with a 1:1 its much softer and very similar to conte. Its not quite as smooth but I’m amazed how easy it is to make. The plaster goes off very quickly and I was almost too late to roll it into a stick! I found I could use it almost as soon as it hardened. I will try it on my next figure drawing…

    Top is the home made with red oxide, bottom is Conte a Paris 18th century

    Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
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    #633256

    I applaud your adventurous spirit David… I’ll look forward to seeing some of he results with this!

    Mac

    #633259
    orrrock
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        I love this sort of stuff. I make quite a few of my materials. I buy ground cheap lightfast pigments, ultramarine, mars red/yellow/black and titanium white, and turn them either into paint oil/acrylic or pastels. I do this partly for economy, partly to get a better paint. It means I can turn acrylic medium into the colour paint I require as and when needed. Experimenting with the mixes until you get a pastel that works the way you want is so rewarding. Good luck with your researches.

        peter

        "Ladies and gentlemen I have suffered for my Art...now it's your turn."
        http://peterorrock.blogspot.com/

        #633260

        Thanks Peter, I’m much the same. I have a cupboard full of pigments, powders and potions :)

        Mac, this recipe is so easy there’s not much adventure but I think tweaking it might take some time. I’m waiting for blackandwhite to comment

        Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
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        #633261

        Well, I tried some more tests and where blackandwhite suggested

        1 part of iron oxide red pigment
        2 parts of Plaster of Paris
        water

        I’ve found exactly the reverse gave the best result

        2 parts pigment
        1 part plaster of paris
        +water

        Too much binder makes the stick scratchy and I just hate that. To me it should lay down smoothly.

        The mixture goes hard very quickly, no more than 5 minutes before it lumps so you need, in my case, to mix and roll it out very fast. Whether I will use it again depends on whether I can keep paying for Conte, which to me is the very best sanguine stick you can buy. Here’s a very quick sketch, please dont criticise me to much, but it demonstrates when first laid down it gives a dark colour and when smeared goes much redder, very much like conte.

        Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
        More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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        #633270
        blackandwhite
        Default

            Great to see these experiments. I updated the recipe in the blog, since it appears that the original recipe produces sticks that are quite hard. There is huge amount of variation in the plaster hardness and I think my batch might have been old or soft quality. Often the craft stores sell whatever quality they get at low cost, so there is no way to know the plaster specifications. I’ve done only few batches of sticks using this recipe, so I haven’t got much experience about the differences between plaster types.

            If the mass harderns too quickly, I’d recommeng cooling all the raw materials before mixing them together. It should give some extra minutes of working time.

            #633262

            I guessed that it might be the plaster, mine came off Ebay and I wouldnt know one plaster of paris from another:) Certainly my mix was much closer to the conte sticks I have with very rich pigment content, but its wonderful to get such quick results. I drew this after an hour of mixing! I’ll try cooling the mix down next time.

            I tried some kaolin + pigment some time ago but I’m right now trying again with much less kaolin. I’ll keep you posted. Thanks for updating your blog, from bitter experience these recipes can vary a lot depending on materials.

            It’s good to have someone else who likes playing with recipes. In the end, we might end up using branded products but to know how they are made teaches a lot about the materials we use and makes for better art. Better still, if we do get something equal to a branded product, then using it is an even greater thrill.

            Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
            More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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            #633258
            Delofasht
            Default

                Wonderful! Gypsum is very soft, Kaolin and Talc are also soft and great for adding some slipperiness to a stick. I agree completely with having a deeper understanding of the materials we use having an effect on what we can do with them. That is very true for my usage of them, once understanding the basics of each binder the ways to manipulate the medium comes easily.

                - Delo Delofasht
                #633263

                Thanks delo

                My test with kaolin + pigment is way better than my previous attempts

                The recipe was:

                2 parts pigment
                1 part kaolin
                water

                I roll my sticks but I like the way blackandwhite flattens the mix into a block and then slices it to make sticks. I have used a mold before but its disappeared into the depths of one of my cupboards ;) My thanks to blackandwhite for his original recipe with gypsum which works just as well depending on how much gypsum (plaster of paris) used. I’ve now got very acceptable home made sanguine sticks.

                To keep this post relevant to the figure here’s a drawing of an ear with my new stick.

                Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
                More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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                #633257

                This is a really useful thread, I may get round to trying this if I come across the ingredients or I find Conte is a bit too expensive to buy!

                I have put this thread in the Techniques Tips & Mediums most useful for the figure in the Library of Figurative Art Resources

                Mac

                #633264

                Thanks Mac, fame at last;)

                Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
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                #633265

                Just one more comment for now. You will drive yourself mad trying to get a true conte stick. You will search the internet for formulae and find many different ones. You will try them all, buying more and more powders and gums to mix in (I’ve just bought some bentonite ) but you will have learned a lot about what you draw with and nothing beats working with a stick you have made yourself. Failing that you could go and work for Conte and get the exact formula. Have fun but dont blame me or blackandwhite ;)

                Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
                More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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                #633271
                blackandwhite
                Default

                    That is so true that trying to perfect the sticks will drive the person mad. It will be very difficult to make exactly the conte stick, since those sticks are manufactured using high pressure extruders that allow them to use very small amount of water in their recipes, thus they can make harder sticks with smaller amount of binders (CMC or similar).

                    The screw extruder that I presented in my blog can generate maybe couple of bar pressure, which works fine for wet crayon dough, but doesn’t work with dryish mass that would produce the perfect conte sticks. The professional stick makers use hydraulic extruders that produce about hundred times more pressure. I’ve been thinking about making new extruder by taking parts from machine vise and designing it so that it could give enough high pressure, but haven’t had the motivation or enough time to make it.

                    If there is no extruder, then another option could be to make a steel (or hardwood) mold and use it to compact the crayon dough to stick shape. Ideally the dough should contain so little amount of water that it just barely holds together when squeezed between fingertips.

                    #633266

                    I should read your blog more thoroughly :) I’m suspecting that I’m getting crumbling with pigment + kaolin because its not compressed enough and there’s tiny air pockets. I have some plastic tubing and I can compress the mix with a rammer, or I may need to add a little gum tragacanth. I am already a little mad but that has nothing to do with this experimentation ;)

                    Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
                    More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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                    #633272
                    blackandwhite
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                        Yes, compression is the key to good quality sticks. My screw extruder was nice in a way that it massaged the air out of the mass, but it required just the right moisture level to work correctly, so it was sometimes difficult to operate. And the moisture level depended on the pigment. Graphite was slippery and required more water (in the stick recipe), titanium oxide was the opposite and worked like a dream with tiny amount of water. Iron oxide pigments were bit like titanium oxide in a way that those could be worked with quite small amount of water.

                        It might be difficult to mix the mass with enough low water content, so one may have to start with higher moisture level, mix everything together, let it dry some time, mix it again and then compress to the stick shape. Ideally the loose mass should feel like moist powder.

                        I have no experience of gum tragacanth. Gum arabic didn’t work, since it moves with the water and accumulates to stick surface during the drying, which makes the surface rock hard. CMC does not behave that way, so I have preferred it. The real conte sticks also contain CMC (+kaolin + pigment). Such binders should be used very sparingly, because it happens easily that the binder binds the materials too well and the sticks don’t leave any mark on the paper.

                        Bentonite should improve the mass working properties, since it makes everything more slippery and plastic, so one could use less water. It should be used sparingly just like the binders. Kaolin should be the main clay that forms the stick body, bentonite makes the mass easier to work, and the gum/CMC binders will add strength to the sticks.

                        One could also use tiny amount of deflocculant chemicals like soda ash to further reduce water content, but I’ve avoided those since those would affect the stick pH and could produce archival issues. It is unlikely that those would cause problems (the clay pH is high-ish and soda ash may not change anything), but I’ve been too lazy to try those.

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