Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing student grade oils vs. acrylics: an observation

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  • #992098
    Patrick1
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        I’ve found student grade oils (particularly W&N Winton which I’ve used a lot) to be completely satisfactory in pigmentation, covering power, opacity, working feel. With most student grade oils, I find little difference with artist-grade oils.

        But I’ve been disappointed by most or all student grade acrylics regardless of brand; they lack darkness, depth (saturation), opacity, and have a light working feel…completely lacking the density, pigmentation, and buttery feel of even student oils.

        The kicker is that a tube of student acrylics costs no less than a tube of student oils – although of course the acrylic is much larger – but seems to have even less total pigment in the tube.

        #1208791
        Tiasa
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            Acrylics as a whole are more transparent than oils so I imagine the student grade acrylics very transparent.

            Acrylics are different from oils so you have to use them somewhat differently.

            —Transparent paints darken when you layer them or paint thickly. That makes them look more opaque.
            —You also might have to use some of the more modern organic tube colors (which are more transparent) if you want more depth (saturation). You can either use multiple thin layers or a somewhat thick layer. Saturation will drop a little, but that is sometimes a good thing with screaming bright transparent colors! The good news with the modern organic colors is they mix cleanly. I think the traditional, opaque oil colors (cadmiums, earth colors, etc.) are a bit more tricky to mix. For instance, some opaque reds and blues look really bad when mixed together.

            I don’t use the student acrylics because I want as much pigment as possible in my paints. I suppose they are all right for quick sketches and studies though. They might be good for your first layer too.

            #1208786
            Patrick1
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                Thanks…but I’m still wondering why the difference between artist vs. student is huge with acrylics but small with oils. Switching from W&N Artists’ to Galeria acrylics, or Liquitex Heavy Body to Basics is like day and night in terms of color strength…I would have to change the way I work. But I could switch from W&N Artists’ to Winton oils and I wouldn’t notice much difference in color.

                My guess is that oil paint manufacturers expect (rightly or wrongly) that oil painters (even the more cost-conscious ones) are more discerning than acrylic users, and thus can’t get away with such drops in pigment levels from artist to student grade.

                #1208795
                Mythrill
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                    Thanks…but I’m still wondering why the difference between artist vs. student is huge with acrylics but small with oils. Switching from W&N Artists’ to Galeria acrylics, or Liquitex Heavy Body to Basics is like day and night in terms of color strength…I would have to change the way I work. But I could switch from W&N Artists’ to Winton oils and I wouldn’t notice much difference in color.

                    My guess is that oil paint manufacturers expect (rightly or wrongly) that oil painters (even the more cost-conscious ones) are more discerning than acrylic users, and thus can’t get away with such drops in pigment levels from artist to student grade.

                    Patrick, the paint I’ve been making is mostly using acrylic emulsion (using Golden’s regular gloss gel as a basis), and I can tell you this:

                    In general, acrylics need to be less pigmented than oils. The reason is that they need stabilizing agents to prevent acidification, and humectants to prevent the paint from drying in the tube.

                    You see, while oils are acidic in nature, acrylics are highly alkaline. In other to be stable in the tube, their PH needs to be around 8.0–9.0. The PH of the water is 7.0, by comparison.

                    What happens is, if you add too much pigment, not only you risk damaging the paint film by future cleaning, but also there will be no room for those humectants.

                    It turns out that you can’t even add regular water to your acrylic painting if you plan to store it, as the pigment will start to separate from the binder and become very uneven! Sure, you can mix what comes from the tube with water, but you can’t add tap water to the paint that will be stored.

                    Now, keeping substances alkaline is a big challenge, and considering tap water might have an even lower PH than 7 (as low as 5.5), adding preservatives to acrylics isn’t a matter of “if”, but “how much” and “what”.

                    At first glance, adding a little of calcium sulphate (i.e, “marble dust”) seems to fix the problem. The problem is, calcium sulphate is a fast-drying agent – so while you’ll fix the problem in the short term, you’ll ruin the paint in the long term! Within 3 to 6 months, the paint you make by adding calcium sulphate will become a huge pile of useless goo.

                    The recipe to keep your paint stable is a bit complicated, but it is more or less like this: for around 30 ml of paint, you add a spoon of a mix of 50% alcohol and water (or more, depending on the consistency you want), and around 1-2 drops of household ammonia. Then, you add 2-3 drops of humectants (you can use acrylic retarder). This will help keeping the paint moist while stored.

                    Notice that acrylics are most stable at around 60% pigment load, usually. Adding more pigment will require at least more retardants. I suppose professional manufacturers have the means of improving the load and stability of their paint by adding more efficient humectants and stabilizers, but it adds to the price of paints.

                    What I think that it is going on with student paints is that students usually want cheaper paint with consistent creamy consistent that will never go bad. Thus, the paint probably has more stabilizers to prevent it from ever going bad in the tube.

                    If you want to purchase student acrylic paints, you might want to go for strong pigments. Since they’re hard to control anyway, their student-grade versions will probably be more pleasing to deal with.

                    A few good purchases probably are:

                      [*]Phthalo Blue (any).
                      [*]Phthalo Green (any).
                      [*]Titanium White (PW 6).
                      [*]Mars Black (PBk 11).
                      [*]Synthetic Iron Oxides (PY 42, PR 101, PBr 6, etc).
                      [*]Lemon Yellow (PY 3).

                    What I usually wouldn’t buy in student grade paints are pigments that are more expensive and require a higher pigment load to be useful. That includes Quinacridone Magenta (PR 122), Green Gold (PY 129), Azo Yellow Medium (PY 74), etc.

                    If you don’t like the pigment load of the student-grade acrylics in the cheaper colors, you might consider “studio” paints. Pebeo has some nice paints with a satin finish, but always check the pigments in the tube. Watch out for tubes that mix organic pigments to make earth colors, for instance!

                    I know you’re an experienced painter – probably far more than I am – but the warning of watching what’s on your paint tube is never enough!

                    #1208792
                    Tiasa
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                        Thanks…but I’m still wondering why the difference between artist vs. student is huge with acrylics but small with oils.

                        My guess is that oil paint manufacturers expect (rightly or wrongly) that oil painters (even the more cost-conscious ones) are more discerning than acrylic users, and thus can’t get away with such drops in pigment levels from artist to student grade.

                        Actually, I think it has more to do with how much pigment you can load into an acrylic binder versus an oil binder. Oils accept higher pigment loads than acrylics.

                        I think the idea that oil painters are more discerning that acrylic users is a myth. Less discerning artists can be found in both camps.

                        Lower quality paints can be found in both camps too. Perhaps you could try professional grade acrylics. I think they are still less costly than oil paints.

                        #1208796
                        Mythrill
                        Default

                            Actually, I think it has more to do with how much pigment you can load into an acrylic binder versus an oil binder. Oils accept higher pigment loads than acrylics.

                            I think the idea that oil painters are more discerning that acrylic users is a myth. Less discerning artists can be found in both camps.

                            Lower quality paints can be found in both camps too. Perhaps you could try professional grade acrylics. I think they are still less costly than oil paints.

                            Tiasa, I agree with you on the most part. But I also agree when Patrick says it’s easier to find good oil paint at cheaper prices than it is to find good acrylic paint at cheaper prices.

                            The reason good acrylic paints cost more is the manufacturing. Making acrylic paints is a lot more complicated precisely because of the more careful balancing of that must be done between pigment load, film integrity, and, finally, how much (and how many) stabilizers you’re going to use to keep the paint good for years on the tube.

                            When working with oils, I managed to get myself a small tube of student-grade Cobalt Blue (PB 28) from Van Gogh (Royal Talens). It cost me around $10.00. If I were to purchase the same paint in acrylics, it would have cost me $20.00.

                            Of course, it’s much harder to find good art quality materials in my country at an affordable price too.

                            #1208793
                            Tiasa
                            Default

                                . . . it’s easier to find good oil paint at cheaper prices than it is to find good acrylic paint at cheaper prices.

                                I am really surprised. I don’t know where you are located, but where I am oil paints are painfully higher than acrylics. Here are the prices in US dollars at Dick Blick near me for professional grade paints:

                                Golden Acrylics Cobalt Blue PB28 – $10.79 for 2 oz. or 59 ml
                                Liquitex Acrylics Cobalt Blue PB28 – $8.90 for 2 oz. or 59 ml

                                Gamblin Oils Cobalt Blue PB28 – $22.09 for 1.25 oz or 37 ml
                                Winsor & Newton Cobalt Blue PB28 – $17.75 for 1.25 oz or 37 ml

                                [FONT=Verdana]Not only are the prices higher for oil paints, but you also get less in a tube. I couldn’t find any Cobalt Blue PB28 in student grade acrylics. Everything was a “hue,” so I couldn’t compare student grade prices to the professional grade acrylics for that color.
                                [/FONT]
                                [FONT=Verdana]I only have 2 tubes of student grade acrylic and I pretty much don’t like them and don’t use them. [/FONT]

                                #1208797
                                Mythrill
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                                    I am really surprised. I don’t know where you are located, but where I am oil paints are painfully higher than acrylics. Here are the prices in US dollars at Dick Blick near me for professional grade paints:

                                    Golden Acrylics Cobalt Blue PB28 – $10.79 for 2 oz. or 59 ml
                                    Liquitex Acrylics Cobalt Blue PB28 – $8.90 for 2 oz. or 59 ml

                                    Gamblin Oils Cobalt Blue PB28 – $22.09 for 1.25 oz or 37 ml
                                    Winsor & Newton Cobalt Blue PB28 – $17.75 for 1.25 oz or 37 ml

                                    [FONT=Verdana]Not only are the prices higher for oil paints, but you also get less in a tube. I couldn’t find any Cobalt Blue PB28 in student grade acrylics. Everything was a “hue,” so I couldn’t compare student grade prices to the professional grade acrylics for that color.
                                    [/FONT]
                                    [FONT=Verdana]I only have 2 tubes of student grade acrylic and I pretty much don’t like them and don’t use them. [/FONT]

                                    Yikes, Tiasa! You’re right. These colors are expensive!

                                    If you like oils, making your own paint might also be much cheaper for you. Have you considered that?

                                    #1208794
                                    Tiasa
                                    Default

                                        Mythrill,

                                        Actually, I like acrylics. I have oil paints too, but mostly I use the acrylics. Can’t beat the price, the easy clean up–and I really like the fast dry. If I make a mistake, I just keep painting and 20 minutes later I can come back to the mistake—and paint it out! No scapeing. No muss. No fuss.

                                        #1208798
                                        Mythrill
                                        Default

                                            Mythrill,

                                            Actually, I like acrylics. I have oil paints too, but mostly I use the acrylics. Can’t beat the price, the easy clean up–and I really like the fast dry. If I make a mistake, I just keep painting and 20 minutes later I can come back to the mistake—and paint it out! No scapeing. No muss. No fuss.

                                            Hi, Tiasa!

                                            I’m a big fan of acrylics too. It’s mostly because of the fast drying, the possibility of working as if you were doing oils, watercolors, or both, and not needing to worry to worry about which pigment dries fast and which dries slowly.

                                            I do like to paint in oils once in a while, though, because they dry much more slowly. The extra time is nice when I want to take my time to figure something out. :)

                                            #1208807
                                            indraneel
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                                                Thanks Mythrill for the detailed answer on how to mix acrylics, I have a couple of liters of binder waiting to be used.

                                                Also, I wonder if the price difference between acrylic binder and oil might have something to do with it. Surely, oil must be cheaper..? so student acrylic tubes may have less binder?

                                                #1208799
                                                Mythrill
                                                Default

                                                    Thanks Mythrill for the detailed answer on how to mix acrylics, I have a couple of liters of binder waiting to be used.

                                                    Also, I wonder if the price difference between acrylic binder and oil might have something to do with it. Surely, oil must be cheaper..? so student acrylic tubes may have less binder?

                                                    Indra, how did you buy your binder?

                                                    Here, acrylic binder is very expensive to buy. Linseed oil is much cheaper, no matter how you look at it. If for some reason you can’t buy it, you can make your own linseed oil!

                                                    Regarding price difference, it’s not really the amount of binder. Certainly, pigment load and the availability of more expensive pigments (like Pyrroles and Perylenes) add to the price.

                                                    Other factors that might influence the price heavily include:

                                                      [*]Binder quality. Does it load more pigment than the average? Is it more resistant to scratching? More transparent? Does it resist to mold a little better?
                                                      [*]More expensive stabilizers. Some stabilizers have an unpleasant smell. The more expensive ones can almost completely eliminate the smell of the paint (e.g, Winsor & Newton, Golden, Daler-Rowney) or even give it a pleasant smell (Daniel Smith).
                                                      [*] Packaging. I tore apart some Winsor & Newton tubes to save the paint due to heavy pigment load and bad stabilizers. The inside of Winsor & Newton tubes was covered in gold! Nice packaging is important to sell, but it also makes the paint cost more.
                                                    #1208808
                                                    indraneel
                                                    Default

                                                        Indra, how did you buy your binder?

                                                        Here, acrylic binder is very expensive to buy. Linseed oil is much cheaper, no matter how you look at it. If for some reason you can’t buy it, you can make your own linseed oil!

                                                        Regarding price difference, it’s not really the amount of binder. Certainly, pigment load and the availability of more expensive pigments (like Pyrroles and Perylenes) add to the price.

                                                        Same place where I buy most of my pigments http://www.pigmentkart.com . The owner was planning to start shipping internationally, don’t know if it’s started yet. They make building exterior paints, so their items are quite pure and lightfast. I did have to go and pick up the binder though, they don’t ship liquids. It cost me about $5 for 2 kilograms (= 2 liters) which is about the same price as the iron oxides. I asked about how much I could dilute it, and he said I can even use 5% binder if I want. Everyone I’ve purchased pigments from have become rather curious about its use in art, especially watercolor.

                                                        I tried painting with some acrylic tubes in watercolor style (lot of water). On smooth paper it stuck very well, actually great deal better than my watercolors. These were free acrylic samples from Jacksons.

                                                        I’d rather not start making oil too, they’ll throw me out for certain :eek: I’ve not been able to locate a linseed oil supplier yet. The wholesale crude price is at about $1/liter. The art store alkali refined linseed oil is rather expensive (about $4 for 500ml). but I am more worried about a safe solvent… maybe acetone will work…

                                                        #1208787
                                                        Patrick1
                                                        Default

                                                            What I think that it is going on with student paints is that students usually want cheaper paint with consistent creamy consistent that will never go bad. Thus, the paint probably has more stabilizers to prevent it from ever going bad in the tube.

                                                            Thank you Mythrill for your detailed explanations. I never knew that formulating acrylics is so much more demanding than oils, especially with regard to all the other ingredients that must be added to make a stable and useable formulation. So acrylics are at a cost disadvantage to begin with – surely one reason (among others) why student acrylics are low in pigmentation vs. a tube of student oil of the same price. I find student oils to be close in pigmentation to artist grade acrylics (anecdotal observations, not careful side-by-side experimentation …which would be an interesting project).

                                                            Regarding cost vs. quality comparisons, my observation came about largely from using Winton, Grumbacher Academy and the slightly more expensive Cobra Study and Artisan oils …versus Liquitex Basics and Amsterdam Standard acrylics – all student grade. These (good quality IMO!) oils cost about the same or less than the larger acrylic tube.

                                                            If you want to purchase student acrylic paints, you might want to go for strong pigments. Since they’re hard to control anyway, their student-grade versions will probably be more pleasing to deal with.

                                                            A few good purchases probably are:[LIST]
                                                            [*]Phthalo Blue (any).
                                                            [*]Phthalo Green (any).
                                                            [*]Titanium White (PW 6).
                                                            [*]Mars Black (PBk 11).
                                                            [*]Synthetic Iron Oxides (PY 42, PR 101, PBr 6, etc).
                                                            [*]Lemon Yellow (PY 3).[/LIST]What I usually wouldn’t buy in student grade paints are pigments that are more expensive and require a higher pigment load to be useful. That includes Quinacridone Magenta (PR 122), Green Gold (PY 129), Azo Yellow Medium (PY 74), etc.

                                                            If you don’t like the pigment load of the student-grade acrylics in the cheaper colors, you might consider “studio” paints. Pebeo has some nice paints with a satin finish, but always check the pigments in the tube.

                                                            I’ve tried Galeria PG7 – disappointing – lacking the virtual black masstone of Artisan PG7, but good covering power. I’ve tried Galeria PY74 and (as you suggest might be the case) it was disappointing in opacity and covering power, despite being labeled ‘opaque’. Basics Quinacridone magenta (PV19) was pale in masstone – looked like white was in the mix but only PV19 was listed. In the Blick color swatches, most student grade acrylic earth colors are noticably lighter in masstone than the artist grade counterpart of the same brand. Sorry…but masstone darkness & saturation is very important to me because this is how I like to make darks…I’m much less picky about tinting strength. But I find student acrylic blacks, whites, and greys to not be nearly as disappointing as the chromatic colors are.

                                                            #1208800
                                                            Mythrill
                                                            Default

                                                                Thank you Mythrill for your detailed explanations. I never knew that formulating acrylics is so much more demanding than oils, especially with regard to all the other ingredients that must be added to make a stable and useable formulation. So acrylics are at a cost disadvantage to begin with – surely one reason (among others) why student acrylics are low in pigmentation vs. a tube of student oil of the same price. I find student oils to be close in pigmentation to artist grade acrylics (anecdotal observations, not careful side-by-side experimentation …which would be an interesting project).

                                                                Regarding cost vs. quality comparisons, my observation came about largely from using Winton, Grumbacher Academy and the slightly more expensive Cobra Study and Artisan oils …versus Liquitex Basics and Amsterdam Standard acrylics – all student grade. These (good quality IMO!) oils cost about the same or less than the larger acrylic tube.

                                                                I’ve tried Galeria PG7 – disappointing – lacking the virtual black masstone of Artisan PG7, but good covering power. I’ve tried Galeria PY74 and (as you suggest might be the case) it was disappointing in opacity and covering power, despite being labeled ‘opaque’. Basics Quinacridone magenta (PV19) was pale in masstone – looked like white was in the mix but only PV19 was listed. In the Blick color swatches, most student grade acrylic earth colors are noticably lighter in masstone than the artist grade counterpart of the same brand. Sorry…but masstone darkness & saturation is very important to me because this is how I like to make darks…I’m much less picky about tinting strength. But I find student acrylic blacks, whites, and greys to not be nearly as disappointing as the chromatic colors are.

                                                                Hi, Patrick!

                                                                Due to acrylics being slightly less pigmented, you actually have to glaze colors one to achieve the color depth of oils. Direct impasto and alla prima become very challenging.

                                                                When using them, it’s best to think of working in color pairs: a color with the overall undertone, and another with the masstone you want. It’s possible to use a student-grade Phthalo Green (PG 7) if you layer it first and then do a slightly transparent mix of something like Phthalo Green (PG 7) + Bone Black (PBk 9).

                                                                Regarding the whitish color of Magenta (either PV 19-gamma or PR 122), I also find that to be a problem in student-grade acrylics.

                                                                You can reach oil-like results in acrylics, but the tricky part is that for them to look exactly like oils, you have to work very differently. I think it’s a little bit easier to achieve contrast in acrylic by working from light washes and reserving whites give you the best results and blending – similar to how you would handle watercolor.

                                                                Of course, these rules changing according to the surface you’re working with and the type of paint (or glazing gel, or retarders). If you’re using Golden’s OPEN acrylics, for example, the blending time can easily go up to 3 hours instead of 5 to 30 minutes.

                                                                Considering regular acrylics can be very unforgiving, though, you can use the lower pigmentation to your advantage: this helps you working from light glazes to more opaque paint.

                                                                Just to show you what’s possible to do with them, I’ll show you an old study I did of an abandoned reproduction of an oil painting. I tried to get as close as possible to a wet-on-wet technique, avoiding mixing colors with their complementaries as much as possible.

                                                                It’s not the best painting ever, but it shows how saturated results can be even with low-chroma paints.

                                                                See the roof of the big house? That’s actually Light Red (PR 102) with “Naples” Yellow Deep (PBr 24)! The flowers in the right? Student-grade Transparent Yellow Iron Oxide (PY 42) with Titanium White and student-grade Opaque Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) with white! In the far right, the roses that seem a bright magenta are actually Cadmium Red Medium (PR 108) with white and unmixed Cadmium Red Deep (PR 108)!

                                                                The house was done with Cerulean Blue (PB 35) with white. This Cerulean Blue is transparent in acrylics (as opposed to opaque in oils), so building the glazes to cover and model the house was a bit annoying.

                                                                The fact that acrylic binders don’t yellow like oils do also makes the paint very bright in real life.

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