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  • #994028
    svaladon
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        Hi,

        I am creating a series of paintings from photos I took at a recent GoodGuys Classic Car show. I have researched and asked everyone from car owners to manufacturers and I can’t get a handle on what I can legally paint and what is fair use. The majority of the car owners told me to not worry and paint what I want. I talked to a well known Southern California custom hot rod collectibles and tshirt company and they told me how they have artists create their designs. They told me to not worry about what I described to them I wanted to do.There are vintage hood ornaments that I have read are fair use because of the age. The only thing that I was told to watch for is some manufacturers create a trademarked “replica” that might or might not be licensed from a car manufacturer. Is there a source on the internet that can give me some cold hard facts. I want to make giclees and possibly t-shirts. If anyone has dealt with this issue please help me educate myself.

        #1250589
        artbymdp
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            I don’t know the answer but I became curious and went online to see what other artists do. Another artist who paints vintage cars and hood ornaments included a fine print note that all manufacturer symbols and logos are the copyright property of the manufacturer. I am not sure if providing a disclaimer is legally enough but he felt compelled to provide it. Just passing this along. Sorry I couldn’t be of help.

            #1250592
            members
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                You’re dealing with the trademarks and copyrights of the car companies, plus any photographers’ copyrights if you do recognizable work from their images without permission. To solve the photographer problem, find one or a few photographers and get permission, perhaps work out a trade, permission for a piece of art, if money’s tight. (Or take your own reference photos and/or sketch from actual cars.)

                A LOT of tricky legal issues, none of which are defined by a handy formula, and which could even cross national borders and involve the laws of other countries, because the car makers and photographers could be all over.

                Find a good intellectual property attorney; most will give you an initial consultation free, and frankly, a couple of hundred dollars to have them advise you further might be well worth it.

                I wouldn’t use a disclaimer. It won’t protect you, and may demonstrate you know/suspect you’re infringing.

                From what I have seen, artists who do one-of-a kind original paintings, sculptures, etc, fare better with depicting brand names than artists who upload that same image to a Print On Demand site and sell it as reprints, pillow covers, etc. This could be as much about attracting attention of brand owners, as much as any actual legal differences. I have seen many artists selling on Etsy who complain that using trademarked brands in their search tags of descriptions gets their work removed, even if the work itself might not be infringing. E.g. Onesie, Frozen, Disney inspired, Tiffany Blue, and a host of brands.

                Fair use cases vary wildly; even courts don’t agree on what fair use is. But if you talk to a good attorney, and read up on it, you can greatly minimize your risk. One thing is sure; the internet is loaded with infringements and is not a good example of what’s legal. Also, google copyright myths, fair use myths, and trademark myths you will find a number of legal articles to kind of get an idea of what is and isn’t ok, and it’s often really different than what ‘everyone’ thinks.

                Good luck. I have seen some wonderful art that does refer to brand named things but there is also a lot that is just going to be removed by DMCA takedown because it was too close to the fuzzy line of where fair use becomes infringement.

                #1250594
                svaladon
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                    Cindy,

                    I really appreciate your answer. I have researched until I am blue in the face. Even IP attorneys don’t agree with each other on what is fair use and okay. I am painting mostly vintage details like hood ornaments, tail fins, a lot of details that are in public domain. I only paint from my own photos. I go to classic car shows with my husband so I have a lot of reference. The car owners are super nice and tell me to paint their car. I talked to a merchandiser about t-shirts and collectibles and they told me what I want to do would be okay. I see so much of this subject everywhere but it is so hard to get facts.

                    #1250588
                    DaveCrow
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                        Unfortunately a lot of these cases come down to what the judge decides or which party can afford to fight it longer in court. This is why the IP attorneys don’t agree on what is “fair use”.

                        Trade marks are registered, but I have no idea how you would go about searching the registry to see if a particular item or image is trademarked.

                        "Let the paint be paint" --John Marin

                        #1250591
                        members
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                            Any brand name is likely to have been registered with the US patent and trademark office, if it is being sold in the US, and certainly if it’s made in the US or by a US company. Not sure about other countries’ databases, but here is the US one: http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-application-process/search-trademark-database There could also be copyright issues, copyright.gov . Tee shirts would be like offering reprints on a Print On Demand site. It’s reproduction, and it’s obviously commercial use.

                            Yes, lawyers are hard to pin down on a definite answer because there really isn’t a definite answer. It’s possible if your work is abstract enough and no one’s using the trademarked name or logo to market it, you will never be noticed or the car co might realize it could lose if they sued. But the more it appears you’re making money off their intellectual property, and the more it’s put out there to be noticed, the higher your risk.

                            Another thing you might research is who is doing it successfully, that is legally. Did they get permission? How are they marketing it? Is their work pretty abstract? A question in Fair Use cases is “effect on the intellectual property owner’s market.” If you’re competing with the company’s own line of tee shirts, that’s risky. Also confusion–would anyone mistake yours with ‘official’ merchandise or an endorsement? Also very risky. Look up trademark infringement, trademark fair use, too. I wish I could find it again, I used to have a good legal article saved on the topic of depicting trademarks/brands in fine art. But perhaps you will run across it in your research. But when that fine art is made into reprints and tee shirts it again seems to increase the risk from what I’ve read.

                            #1250590
                            members
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                                BTW I do know a fine artist who paints cars. She has not been sued that I know of. But I am sure any lawyer would be unwilling to guarantee she never would even if she is doing very low risk work. http://torvafineart.com/torva.php/torvafineart/gallery

                                #1250593
                                members
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                                    Forgot to say, any time you enter into a business endeavor with someone, there should be a contract. Is the person wanting you to do art for tee shirts willing to agree to accept responsibility if there’s a legal problem, (indemnity clause)?

                                    #1250587
                                    IanBertram
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                                        My own limited experience, not with my own art but in another context is that Trade Mark owners can try to push the boundaries of what they actually have rights too. Unlike copyright, a trademark has to be registered in each country in which it will be used, with some special cases like the EU.

                                        In my case I came afoul of a TM that was only registered in the US. I was selling an item on Etsy that included this TM. It was a TM issue only since everything else was out of copyright. Etsy pulled my items and the TM owner refused to discuss the matter, even when I agree not to sell the items concerned in the US. Etsy won’t do anything without the TM owner’s agreement so I’m over a barrel, even though my contract with Etsy is under Irish law. In passing, Etsy appear to be in some confusion over the difference between copyright and TM, simply lumping them together as matters Intellectual Property. They are of course but the legal context is different.

                                        I looked at registering the TM (just words) in the UK myself, (perfectly legal) but reluctantly decided against it since the income generated wasn’t enough to cover even the basic costs.

                                        So the moral for me is to take just as much care with TM items as with copyright. Even if you are in the right you may still find yourself in difficulties. You can check online to see if a TM is still in operation which is worth doing.

                                        Ian
                                        Website - https://ianbertramartist.uk
                                        Instagram: - https://www.instagram.com/ianbertramuk/
                                        Facebook: - https://www.facebook.com/ianbertramartist/

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