WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Pastels > Soft Pastel Learning Center
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 12:02 AM
maw-t's Avatar
maw-t maw-t is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
tx
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,329
 
Hails from United States
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Thanks all for the comments!

Really interesting Don & Charlie on the how to start.. thanks for all the info! Charlie another wonderful example of lips.. so much detail yet subtle & VERY realistic!.. I love your portraits... doggys r people!
Coleen very nice moody piece!
JAnis, Nice skin tones & you also have got him nearer his age than I did! Good job!

Here is one I tackled from the RIL thanks to Maria Khurram for the gorgeous photo..It was sort of a monchromatic picture very soft... I did this tonight on wallis paper using just a few sticks... I think I may try it again on softer surface to try for a softer look .. fire away with crits!
__________________
C & Cs _always_ welcome!
Blessings & HaPpY day to you!

T
  #62   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 12:49 AM
maw-t's Avatar
maw-t maw-t is offline
A WetCanvas! Patron Saint
tx
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,329
 
Hails from United States
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Charlie, I admit... I first went to your short answer.. but just now read your longer version... I think I fall into the weak no punch subtle catagory & really not by choice many times..although I do tend to lean toward soft light colors when decorating.. so maybe it IS what I like subconcously... I watched part of a video today by Tom keating.. (the restorer/forger of the old masters).. heard of him? ANyway, it was so very interesting & spoke much about what you just wrote... he showed the techniques of the old masters ... Amazing how he fooled art critics collectors buyers gallerys into believing his copies were the real deal.... But he knew the techniques backwards & forwards from his years as a restorer... He believes that if one studys enough & with much practice.. it would be possible to produce as great of work as the masters.. which is what he was trying to prove...He believes ANYONE can be that good!! Kind of back to the question of is it talent OR simply skill??
__________________
C & Cs _always_ welcome!
Blessings & HaPpY day to you!

T
  #63   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 09:42 AM
Mette Rörström's Avatar
Mette Rörström Mette Rörström is offline
Lord of the Arts
sweden
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,009
 
Hails from Sweden
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Hi!
the first one I tryed to paint with the side of the stics.It´s just the start of the painting...I think its horrible..
Then I painted more on it....






__________________
Mette Rörström.
http://www.metterorstrom.com
  #64   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Colorix's Avatar
Colorix Colorix is offline
A WC! Legend
Stockholm, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,556
 
Hails from Sweden
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

(Don, this post will be on topic, it goes there in paragraph 3.)

T, I'm glad you brought up Keating, he is (was?) amazing! Saw a series of his demos some 20 years back... made indelible impression on me.

He was the pivotal point in making me understand that yes we can learn to paint as the great masters. It simply takes knowledge and practice, as you say, T. The old masters did have lots of practice and knowledge, gained during many years. Often they started as apprentices, sweaping and dusting, grinding pigments, learning how pigments behave from scratch. And they sketched and copied, too. It makes sense that if we repeat learning the craft (no need for grinding, we have tube paint or pastels), repeat the learning process of doing studies, then we'd be able to repeat the producing of masters too. After all, it is a proven method. Keatings copies were the real deal, in a sense, as they were produced in the same way, with the same knowledge -- the only problem was that little detail of signing with another name than his own...

The biggest problem for me has been to locate where the knowledge is. In Sweden, it is not taught in art schools anymore.

So that is why a class like this one (thank you, Don!) is so invaluable! Here, we learn one of the classical thechniques for painting portraits. Don has had us study single features, and given us of the 'secrets' of how to render them realistically and believably, and beautifully! This is the 'crafts' part of painting that enables us to do art.

Charlie


Quote:
Originally Posted by maw-t
Charlie, I admit... I first went to your short answer.. but just now read your longer version... I think I fall into the weak no punch subtle catagory & really not by choice many times..although I do tend to lean toward soft light colors when decorating.. so maybe it IS what I like subconcously... I watched part of a video today by Tom keating.. (the restorer/forger of the old masters).. heard of him? ANyway, it was so very interesting & spoke much about what you just wrote... he showed the techniques of the old masters ... Amazing how he fooled art critics collectors buyers gallerys into believing his copies were the real deal.... But he knew the techniques backwards & forwards from his years as a restorer... He believes that if one studys enough & with much practice.. it would be possible to produce as great of work as the masters.. which is what he was trying to prove...He believes ANYONE can be that good!! Kind of back to the question of is it talent OR simply skill??
__________________
Charlie

Charlie's Site/Blog
  #65   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 12:09 PM
JLMTD's Avatar
JLMTD JLMTD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 241
 
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Thanks maw-t! If I ever get near as good as you are, I'll be thrilled! Not likely, since I just realized that I wasn't exactly following the instruction...missed the part that said to stay away from earth tones. There's a lot of good information here thanks to Don and Charlie, but I'm easily confused. I'll try again. Meanwhle I'm re-reading and processing all the info!

Mette, please, nothing is more horrible than my first ones of the boy! And look how beautiful he came out for you! Both of you achieved an incredibly good likeness.

Janis
__________________
JanisDoucette[email protected]
  #66   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 01:00 PM
DAK723's Avatar
DAK723 DAK723 is offline
WC! Guide
Rochester, NY
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 12,586
 
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

T, I love this one! So many great things happening! Very nice delineation of the lights and the shadows. You demonstrate that you do not need a lot of detail for a portrait to be effective.

I mentioned "lost" edges in my comments on Charlie's last post and here you have shown some great examples. Since I only mentioned "lost and found" edges once in my lesson, perhaps I should recap and elaborate a bit for those following the thread.

Lost and found edges:

Lost and found edges occur where two edges of a similar value meet. As an artist we can create these types of "meetings," or we can manipulate the edges to make the edges more or less noticeable. Where the edge is less noticeable, or disappears completely, we have a "lost" edge. Where the edge reappears, it is "found". It is not always easy to know if one should "lose" the edge or "find" the edge. In some ways this is more of an advanced topic, but important enough to include in the fundamentals! Using lost edges can create a more realistic feel, since edges of similar value occur in most settings as people and things are not outlined! On the other hand, a lost edge can make something harder to see or recognize, or make two things at different distances, seem to be at the same distance. These are things to keep in mind when they occur in your paintings. However, all that being said, the brain does a very good job of recognizing edges, even when they are not there. So, one can usually put in more lost edges than one might think!

This painting is a great example of a very effective use (IMHO) of lost edges. Almost the entire far side of the face is lost, but it works! I have placed arrows at the most obvious "lost" edges. I have no trouble recognizing the face and features where the edges are lost.



All comments, questions, opinions on lost and found edges are welcome!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by maw-t
Thanks all for the comments!

Really interesting Don & Charlie on the how to start.. thanks for all the info! Charlie another wonderful example of lips.. so much detail yet subtle & VERY realistic!.. I love your portraits... doggys r people!
Coleen very nice moody piece!
JAnis, Nice skin tones & you also have got him nearer his age than I did! Good job!

Here is one I tackled from the RIL thanks to Maria Khurram for the gorgeous photo..It was sort of a monchromatic picture very soft... I did this tonight on wallis paper using just a few sticks... I think I may try it again on softer surface to try for a softer look .. fire away with crits!
  #67   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 01:05 PM
terri66's Avatar
terri66 terri66 is offline
Veteran Member
Cold Lake, Alberta
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 594
 
Hails from Canada
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Don,

Sorry I am jumping in midstream but could use the critique. I'm working on suede matt board, loving the way the pastels go on it but occasionally finding it a bit unforgiving for softening edges/blending.

This is a study of my son Paul of when he was 4.
Attached Images
 
__________________
C&C helps me grow as an artist, so please indulge me. Terri

  #68   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 01:50 PM
JLMTD's Avatar
JLMTD JLMTD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 241
 
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAK723
T,
Lost and found edges:

Lost and found edges occur where two edges of a similar value meet. As an artist we can create these types of "meetings," or we can manipulate the edges to make the edges more or less noticeable. Where the edge is less noticeable, or disappears completely, we have a "lost" edge. Where the edge reappears, it is "found". It is not always easy to know if one should "lose" the edge or "find" the edge. In some ways this is more of an advanced topic, but important enough to include in the fundamentals! Using lost edges can create a more realistic feel, since edges of similar value occur in most settings as people and things are not outlined! On the other hand, a lost edge can make something harder to see or recognize, or make two things at different distances, seem to be at the same distance. These are things to keep in mind when they occur in your paintings. However, all that being said, the brain does a very good job of recognizing edges, even when they are not there. So, one can usually put in more lost edges than one might think!

This painting is a great example of a very effective use (IMHO) of lost edges. Almost the entire far side of the face is lost, but it works! I have placed arrows at the most obvious "lost" edges. I have no trouble recognizing the face and features where the edges are lost.



All comments, questions, opinions on lost and found edges are welcome!

Don

Very interesting discussion. BTW T, I really love this one...sometimes it's hard for me to articulate why, but I think this discussion is making me more aware of what I like about it. In part it is the lost edges that contribute to the freshness or rawness of the portrait. It makes her look to feel so like the epitomy of vulnerable youth...perfect treatment for this. Adding that splotch of real pink on her cheek highlights her delicate young girl features, too, especially in contrast to the darker, more world-worn colors of her dress, and dirtied up background.

Mind you, I love Mary Cassatt and I think this is as good as any of hers!
Janis
__________________
JanisDoucette[email protected]
  #69   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 02:38 PM
Colorix's Avatar
Colorix Colorix is offline
A WC! Legend
Stockholm, Sweden
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 13,556
 
Hails from Sweden
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Mette, good likeness of the boy!

Btw, Don and all, Hubby and I discussed the ref photo, trying to figure out what it is that makes this a boy. I thought it could as well be a girl, with different hairstyle and a pink t-shirt. I was looking at the brow-ridge (neutral size), and jaw-bone (neutral size too), and could see a girl, or a boy. Hubby took a glance, and said "boy!" The expression in his eyes is a boy's, he said. Funny thing is, we have a neighbour's girl who is the spitting image of the ref.

Don, I think you mentioned getting to differences between men and women, but will you talk about differences (if there are any) regarding small (up to 9-10) boys and girls too? If not planned, maybe we all could pool resources?

Janis, wow, I'm thoroughly impressed by your getting from that start to that finish, and the lovely result!

T, that one is hauntingly beautiful, with all the lost edges. It will end up in a museum! It definitely has a spritit to it that trancends mere likeness. Thank you for showing it.

And, I'm sticking to mouths, this time with teeth. Don, this is a totally new way for me to paint features. I used to draw meticuously and then fill in colour. I'm so extatic over your teaching it! Thank you!



Charlie
__________________
Charlie

Charlie's Site/Blog
  #70   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 03:10 PM
DAK723's Avatar
DAK723 DAK723 is offline
WC! Guide
Rochester, NY
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 12,586
 
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Mette,

Very nice! You've really captured the roundness of a youthful face, and I like the hair very much!

The "side stick" exercise is basically an attempt to have people look at, and paint, the big shapes and not worry about detail. So, it may not look pretty, but it emphasizes to start with big value shapes. You have demonstrated that it works out well in the end!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mette Rörström
Hi!
the first one I tryed to paint with the side of the stics.It´s just the start of the painting...I think its horrible..
Then I painted more on it....






  #71   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 03:11 PM
terri66's Avatar
terri66 terri66 is offline
Veteran Member
Cold Lake, Alberta
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 594
 
Hails from Canada
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Quick sketch of Missy J. Got smarter and used a more limited palett, still on suede board.

Charlie, nicely done Love how you are incorporating colour.
Attached Images
 
__________________
C&C helps me grow as an artist, so please indulge me. Terri

  #72   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Mette Rörström's Avatar
Mette Rörström Mette Rörström is offline
Lord of the Arts
sweden
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,009
 
Hails from Sweden
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Janis.. thank you!
Charlie..thank you! Love yours, they are so ful of life!
Don..Thank you! I love this...I am learning something eatch time I open this thread.Thank you for doing this!
I will work more on the boy...his neck and .....?....the blue thing he has on...(forgot the word).
__________________
Mette Rörström.
http://www.metterorstrom.com
  #73   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 04:42 PM
DAK723's Avatar
DAK723 DAK723 is offline
WC! Guide
Rochester, NY
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 12,586
 
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Terri, Thank for joining us! You can jump in midstream!

If you are looking for thorough critiques, I would recommend posting this in the soft pastel studio and gallery. You will get a lot more eyes looking at it. (I enlarged your pic, but you might want to post a larger pic as well!)

My critique will focus on what we've been doing in our lessons, for the most part.

I think you have done a pretty good job in depicting the values. One area you might want to check your light versus shadow division in the chin. I have put green lines on the ref where that dividing line seems to be. You have the light extending further to the left, making the chin seem to be sticking out more (and catching more light).

The lip (arrow) has a bit of a problem area. On the ref, the top lip seems to be a darker value than the entire bottom lip. The highlight on the lower lip seems to gently transition to shadow. On your painting, you have a dark value right above my arrow, making it look like his lip ends there.

The other adjustments are all regarding measuring which we will cover in the next lesson. Just a few minor measuring previews: The eyebrows are almost in line in the ref, more out of line on your painting. That little curly cue of hair is above the hairline, would be off your painting entirely. The distance from the shadow line on the nose to the eye (blue line) is greater on the ref - too close on your painting.

Sorry that my replies are rather blunt, but I am in a rush! Sorry! Generally, this is looking good!

Don





Quote:
Originally Posted by terri66
Don,

Sorry I am jumping in midstream but could use the critique. I'm working on suede matt board, loving the way the pastels go on it but occasionally finding it a bit unforgiving for softening edges/blending.

This is a study of my son Paul of when he was 4.
  #74   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 04:53 PM
terri66's Avatar
terri66 terri66 is offline
Veteran Member
Cold Lake, Alberta
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 594
 
Hails from Canada
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Don, that's the stuff I am looking for. Thank-you. Terri
__________________
C&C helps me grow as an artist, so please indulge me. Terri

  #75   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-07-2009, 06:53 PM
Mette Rörström's Avatar
Mette Rörström Mette Rörström is offline
Lord of the Arts
sweden
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,009
 
Hails from Sweden
Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Here is a new one.....
The hair was like painting cotton..


__________________
Mette Rörström.
http://www.metterorstrom.com

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:59 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.