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  #31   Report Bad Post  
Old 01-04-2009, 12:05 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsloan2
T, yours is so beautiful. I love it. You have the depth and modeling perfect and the likeness is there.

I'm excited about this one and going to be doing them, the one that'll give me the most trouble though is trying to use just the sides of sticks. I can't work very large for logistic reasons, so I'm trying to figure out which ones to use that'll give me small enough pieces to use that technique on something I can still hold in my lap. Or I'll just try it on larger paper with Senneliers anyway.

I think the Sennelier half sticks are probably the best ones to try that with, don't have many small pieces in the others because my usual technique is using the tips (but not always the corners or edges). I'm used to being able to get thinner or thicker, lighter or heavier application by angle.

Robert,

I look forward to seeing your "side stick" efforts. As you can see, I used sticks that had been broken or were worn down to a small size. I also used them at different angles, moving the stick in the lengthwise direction for reasonably thin strokes. I don't expect any type of accuracy in those exercises - they are an effort to see the big shapes and get away from the linear approach. Mine took less than 5 minutes - so they can be quick and dirty!

Hope to see everybody try these!

Don
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:51 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Well I tried the lil boy.... first he looked much older (still does) but not as much... I will post some pics in progress so yall can see how bad he was to start! This is about the 2 1/2 hr mark (where I am now)... painted off n on today... I start out thinking I am going to do a small lesson.. but get carried away... ANyway any & all
comments/crits welcome... I feel like I am hogging this thread.. where IS everbuddy???
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:22 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)


YIKES this is the beginning..
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:36 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)


Then I did some blending & correcting..

Next

Then went back in & played with bg to lose some edges & still correcting for about 15 more minutes to get to where I am now( other post)....
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:52 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Hi!
I started with lips....to morrow I will try a painting with 3 colors...

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Old 01-04-2009, 10:08 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

T,

Thanks for posting! Another very fine effort! Some very nice delicate shadows on this one. The color choices are wonderful!

As far as the likeness goes, I think there are a couple reasons why he looks older. Some have to do with measurements, others with the value shapes. Its the value shapes, specifically the shape of his nearest cheek, that I want to emphasize. I took the boy into photoshop and used the posterize filter. I know that I repeatedly mention the value shapes as if they were clearly defined - and they are not, especially in the transition from light to shadow. The posterize filter will take away the gradual transition and allow me to see more distinct divisions. (Of course, the transitions still need to be painted smoothly!) I think you will notice that the cheek is much more rounded and fuller, spreading more toward the ear and jaw than in your painting. While your painting has a very nice delicacy to it, you might consider a few darker darks - I see an area under the chin, the eyes, and some areas of the hair - that could go darker.

I'm sorry to be so picky, because this is a real nice painting, as is!

Don





Quote:
Originally Posted by maw-t
Well I tried the lil boy.... first he looked much older (still does) but not as much... I will post some pics in progress so yall can see how bad he was to start! This is about the 2 1/2 hr mark (where I am now)... painted off n on today... I start out thinking I am going to do a small lesson.. but get carried away... ANyway any & all
comments/crits welcome... I feel like I am hogging this thread.. where IS everbuddy???
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:14 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

T, Thanks for posting the stages! You say yikes for this stage, but you are mapping out the shadow and light! Great!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by maw-t

YIKES this is the beginning..
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:16 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Mette, Nice lips! Well done!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mette Rörström
Hi!
I started with lips....to morrow I will try a painting with 3 colors...

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Old 01-04-2009, 10:37 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Don, thanks so much... boy I can sure it in the blk & wht posterized one... I see the nose is curved too much too & his left eye is a smifge high maybe.. & some other stuff also. This is just what I needed.. I am very tahnkful for your help! I may go back in & see if I can get a better likeness.. thanks again!
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:52 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Don, yet another excellent lesson!

Hair, now... we all (at least women) have bad hair days, and the portraits I've tried have all had bad hair days when I've finished...

I'd like to show a picture of how hair is treated as masses of light and shadow, that is, values. The artist's wife Karin, painted by Carl Larsson, in watercolours:



I'm highly impressed! Not one strand, not even in the curly wisps surrounding the face, they too are broken down into masses. His rival of fame, the contemporary Anders Zorn, painted hair in the same manner.

Zorn has painted a reddish blond girl plaiting her hair. The girl is very fair, but there are still deep 'low-lights' in her hair:



Don, couldn't resist your invitation from the previous month to share observations, and to show off two of Sweden's greatest painters.

A question:
I've noticed that you do starts by blocking in the darks and the lights that are near the 'book-end' values. Other schools advocate starting with more mid-tone darks and lights, and working towards the extremes. I like your method, so I'm not questioning, but asking: What is, in your opinion, the advantage of your method?

(Yes, I'm about to paint excercises, too. Not just talk.)

Charlie
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:43 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorix

A question:
I've noticed that you do starts by blocking in the darks and the lights that are near the 'book-end' values. Other schools advocate starting with more mid-tone darks and lights, and working towards the extremes. I like your method, so I'm not questioning, but asking: What is, in your opinion, the advantage of your method?

Charlie

Lesson related discussion for everyone:

Charlie,

Thanks for posting the examples by Larsson and Zorn! I do invite everyone to share observations, examples, etc. Your question is a good one, so I'm inviting everyone to listen (and join) in!

As far as the initial block in of darks and lights, I don't know of any particular advantage to using more extreme values or starting more with the middle values, in all honesty. Many artists that I have read or seen on video, advocate starting with the darkest dark to establish your dark limit right away, so that you can than compare the values you subsequently put down. Others say put down your lightest light, too, for the same reason. I suppose this is a good idea to try!

I, personally never feel comfortable doing that. In my examples, I started with a mid-dark - not my darkest, but it could have been ANY shadow value, as far as I'm concerned. To a certain degree, the value of the paper comes into play as well. I know that when I use a lighter valued paper, than my initial shadow value is lighter, too! So, as long as my shadow value is darker than the paper, it works for me.

Daniel Greene, famous contemporary artist, uses an approach that begins with a medium value to draw in the portrait. He then goes to a slightly darker value and essentially redraws - refining and tightening up the drawing. Sometimes, he then redraws it again, in an even darker value. Again, one could try that method in comparison.

In other words, I don't think it really matters, as far as the darks go.

Now, the lights are a different story - even though this is something I personally forget to do many times (nor did I do it in my demonstrations)! I would recommend that the initial lights be put in with a value a little darker than your final light value. Putting subsequent lighter layers over the top will give a more transparent and textured feel if their is a bit of darker value underneath. (This is one good reason to work on a mid-value toned paper). And you always want to leave room for a value for the lightest highlights. In other words, you highlight won't be visible if you try to place it on a value that is already too light.

I have read those that say the difference between the light and shadow must be at least 40%, in other words, on a value scale of 1 to 10, the shadows are 4 values darker. I have read those that say all lights should be lighter than a mid value gray and all shadows darker than 50%. I would say that these might be helpful guidelines, but they are not rules, by any means. The last example by Maw-T has very light, delicate shadows that are not that much darker than the lights. But they work just fine. Changing color (and color temperature) can create a clear difference in the light and shadow areas, without that much value change. It is creating a clear difference in the light and shadow areas that is the most important part, at least as far as my lessons go. That is the goal!

So feel free to try out you initial block in of the values with different methods. See what works best for you.

Don
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:10 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Don, thank you for your info packed reply!

I may put down the darkest dark, and the lightest light, as small marks, just to give the bookends, especially if I do a low or high key painting. Helps to have sorted my Rembies in values, too. (I start with the Rembs.) Then I go with slightly lighter darks, and more mid lights, exactly for the reason you mention about highlights.

Class:

Working on what is left of the gray velour.

I experimented a bit with the starts of two mouths. I separated them into one darker value and one lighter, taking your shape-method to the extreme, with two flat values.

Here's the demo mouth, at four different points in time:


And the boy's (with the blue cap) mouth. Here I went wild with green and violet:



Don, I'm having such fun, and I've learned tons already! Thank you!

Charlie
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:43 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

I feel like a clumbsy fool after looking at your stuff Clorix! Great stuff.

Here is my attempt at a full face. I think I'll stick to details for now and work my way up.

She looks like a guy. haha



Mike
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:03 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Charlie,

These are great! There is so much life and subtlety in them. Incredible! Thanks for showing the steps!

I have a question regarding the previous discussion. I was in kind of a hurry (I teach fitness classes on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings) and forgot to ask it then. You mention that some "schools" advocate starting with the middle values and working towards the extremes. I found that comment interesting, because that is how I worked for years, but almost every resource I found always advocated starting with the darkest darks. So I wonder what the advantages might be for starting in the middle. Maybe I was on to something all those years ago!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorix
Don, thank you for your info packed reply!

I may put down the darkest dark, and the lightest light, as small marks, just to give the bookends, especially if I do a low or high key painting. Helps to have sorted my Rembies in values, too. (I start with the Rembs.) Then I go with slightly lighter darks, and more mid lights, exactly for the reason you mention about highlights.

Class:

Working on what is left of the gray velour.

I experimented a bit with the starts of two mouths. I separated them into one darker value and one lighter, taking your shape-method to the extreme, with two flat values.

Here's the demo mouth, at four different points in time:


And the boy's (with the blue cap) mouth. Here I went wild with green and violet:



Don, I'm having such fun, and I've learned tons already! Thank you!

Charlie
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Old 01-05-2009, 09:20 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 2 (The Mouth and More)

Mike, Looks good! I see a lot more blocking in of bigger shapes of shadow and light in this one compared to your previous efforts.

You actually bring up a good point in your comment about "looking like a guy." There are differences that need to be kept in mind when doing portraits when it comes to the lower half of the face of men and women. You have just a bit of shadow area that is a sort of grayish blue (or perhaps green) just above the edge of the lip. Lot's of portrait books will mention that, in order to indicate the bearded area of men (even when shaven) that a slight grayish cast be used to indicate that 5 o'clock shadow. So, there may be times when indicating shadows in that area of a woman, that one has to avoid creating any type of grayish colors that might be interpreted as a bearded area.

Aside from that, this is a good start. I think a little more blending where some of the different values meet will help create a smoother look to the skin.

Nice job!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrking
I feel like a clumbsy fool after looking at your stuff Clorix! Great stuff.

Here is my attempt at a full face. I think I'll stick to details for now and work my way up.

She looks like a guy. haha



Mike

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