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  #31   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 11:32 AM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
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Re: Barn door

Interesting drawing Rahul, it may just be the scan but is the hatching on the hinge in diluted ink ?
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Old 12-31-2014, 12:03 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
1) . . the late 19th- early 20th century stuff & think it is as the pinnacle of the medium . .

2) Others for instance may . . have little knowledge about other approaches when their style was emerging & their aesthetic judgement being formed. . . one artist may be quite at a loss as to why another artist thinks or works in a certain way - it's a matter of background.

3) Now there is definitely no right & wrong . . So whilst we ALL think we are right & the person expressing a view at variance with our own view in someway understands less than us - it really isn't true at all !


Mike,

1) It's my personal opinion that what constitutes the pinnacle of any particular medium is a matter of personal opinion.

2) It's also my opinion that we're all reasonably intelligent people capable of transcending whatever backgrounds from which we come. Creativity (human nature) trumps nurture.

3) Agreed. It is, in my opinion, foolish and pompous to imagine one is "right" about anything as subjective as art. Best to temper our hubris with "In my opinion" or "As I see it. "
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:13 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul_jain



This is a beautiful rendition Rahul! Well done! I think you captured the essence of the subject very well. This to me is what's important, I don't believe the message should be the medium......but that's my opinion.
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:47 PM
outsidelogic outsidelogic is offline
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Re: Barn door

Great discussion, all...

The subjective nature of art: Olaf, Mike, we're on a slippery slope here. Yes, art is subjective to a certain extent. So we can debate whether Titian was better than El Greco. But Titian is better than I, artistically speaking. No debate. Even if someone gets more out of looking at one of my drawings than looking at Venus of Urbino, Titian is still a better artist. There are some absolutes. And part of understanding those absolutes depends on the viewer's background and education. Most high schoolers like The Fault in Our Stars better than Macbeth, but that's primarily because they don't fully understand Macbeth. No one would dispute that it's a better work of literature...or, if they did, they'd be wrong.

So what about cross-hatching? I sort of agree with Mike and Jeffro, but my opinions are not as strong as theirs. Cross-hatching is especially good for certain textures, like coarse fabric or rocks. The Gustav Dore' engraving I mimicked (and posted here a few weeks ago) makes good use of it. I think rahul_jain's use of it on the hinges is pretty effective.

The fact is that we have all, for some weird masochistic reason, chosen to work in a medium that is much more limited in its palette and toolset than, say, painting. In some way, we value and find some virtue in the limitations, and enjoy being creative within those boundaries. We obviously don't want things to be easy. I suspect we are all Protestants . It's generally easier to create tone with cross-hatching, but, in most cases, (and in my opinion) the end result is not as effective as it could be with uni-directional lines.
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:49 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davkin
This is a beautiful rendition Rahul! Well done! I think you captured the essence of the subject very well. This to me is what's important, I don't believe the message should be the medium......but that's my opinion.
Well said, agreed . .
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Old 12-31-2014, 02:56 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by outsidelogic
1). . art is subjective to a certain extent. . . There are some absolutes. And part of understanding those absolutes depends on the viewer's background and education. . .

2)So what about cross-hatching? . . Cross-hatching is especially good for certain textures . . I think rahul_jain's use of it on the hinges is pretty effective.

3)The fact is that we have all, for some weird masochistic reason, chosen to work in a medium that is much more limited in its palette and toolset than, say, painting. In some way, we value and find some virtue in the limitations, and enjoy being creative within those boundaries. We obviously don't want things to be easy. I suspect we are all Protestants . . .

1) Absolutely . . without some, minimal, objective absolutes we're faced with, as C. S. Lewis put it, The Abolition of Man.

2) Agreed

3) I'm a Calvinist myself . .
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:21 PM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by outsidelogic
Great discussion, all...

The subjective nature of art: Olaf, Mike, we're on a slippery slope here. Yes, art is subjective to a certain extent. So we can debate whether Titian was better than El Greco. But Titian is better than I, artistically speaking. No debate. Even if someone gets more out of looking at one of my drawings than looking at Venus of Urbino, Titian is still a better artist. There are some absolutes. And part of understanding those absolutes depends on the viewer's background and education. Most high schoolers like The Fault in Our Stars better than Macbeth, but that's primarily because they don't fully understand Macbeth. No one would dispute that it's a better work of literature...or, if they did, they'd be wrong.


Well yes ,you're right of course & choose extremes to prove your point, but what if you are right & there's an elite of artistically literate people who's judgement IS in fact acknowledged to be superior to the less educated/ artistically literate ?
1. you get into the crazy situation that modern art has found itself today where only the elite see any value in the art ! & everybody else must be presumed to be ignorant or wrong! I would humbly suggest that in the case of todays modern art that the emperor is in fact wearing no cloths & modern establishment art is rubbish !
2. Art is surely about communication & everybody has their own experience in life & therefore either identify or don't with a piece of art. They either get it & it tallies with their experience or they don't & believe it's poor art.

So a young girl thinks her Barbie colouring book is great art then ? Well yes it moves her & she identifies with it - It is great art to her, therefore it is totally subjective.
I don't really believe what I've written above but do feel genuinely cautious about defining absolutes in matters of taste. Just as you said we are on slippery ground. I'm not sure I'm able to come down on one side of the fence or the other on this one but am open to persuasion.
Mike.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:01 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
. . but what if . . there's an elite of artistically literate people who's judgement IS in fact acknowledged to be superior to the less educated/ artistically literate ?
To my mind, objective standards of beauty and ability do in fact exist . . but they exist primarily and largely as a metaphysical abstract.

Socially "acknowledged superiority" is too often social bullying—so too is personally and pompously pontificating as a self-appointed authority.

Mike, your "modern art" example is excellent . . and very telling.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:24 PM
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Re: Barn door

I certainly stirred up a hornet's nest! I'm glad though, as I think all these strong opinions will help me sort through what's best for me. I agree there is no "right" or "wrong" way to produce a piece of art, except for some time-honoured sensible reasons why things may go wrong in all media. Once the New Year is over I will carefully go through all the interesting posts and follow all the links mentioned. Thanks so much everyone. My next project involves metal in a big way so I'll post the result eventually and get some feedback. Happy New year everyone.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:35 PM
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Re: Barn door

There's no question that the more art one is exposed to the more informed a decision one can make about what they like and don't like. However If you showed the same 100 images to 100 different people that all have approximately the same amount of exposure to art you're likely to get 100 different opinions about which images they most like. I observed something interesting with my own family however. Most of my family really knows little if anything about art. What my Mom knows comes mostly from watching Bob Ross on PBS. When I first started sharing my work with my family my brother took no interest in the landscapes, my Dad little interest, my Mom took little interest in the vehicles which were all my brother cared about and my Dad was most interested in. Several years later my brother actually expresses interest in my landscapes, even the totally natural ones, (which before he said there had to be at least a structure of some sort to interest him.) my Dad has warmed up to the landscapes more and my Mom warmed up to the vehicle paintings. In other words, I've seen the tastes of my family change as I expose them to more of my art as well as the art of others. However, does that mean my paintings are better than any others? Of course not, it just means I've done a good job of propagandizing my family.
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:28 PM
outsidelogic outsidelogic is offline
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf
...I'm a Calvinist myself . .

That's probably a better characterization of us as a group...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
...you get into the crazy situation that modern art has found itself today where only the elite see any value in the art

Yeah, totally agree. I see a lot of celebrated modern art that consists of a moderately clever concept, very little in the way of skill or craftsmanship, and an "endorsement" from the art establishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
It is great art to her, therefore it is totally subjective.

Well, yes, of course, as soon as you put the "to her" in there, it's subjective by definition. The interesting thing is when you talk about "great art" without the "to her" or "to me". Does such a thing exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davkin
There's no question that the more art one is exposed to the more informed a decision one can make about what they like and don't like.

Or to make it more controversial, "There's no question that the more art one is exposed to the more informed a decision one can make about what is good and what isn't"
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:53 PM
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Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by outsidelogic
Or to make it more controversial, "There's no question that the more art one is exposed to the more informed a decision one can make about what is good and what isn't"

Yes, that makes it more controversial, in fact the change makes that statement so controversial that I disagree with it. Whether art is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder. Art is simply way too subjective for there to be any universal truth about it.
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:56 PM
Rahul_jain Rahul_jain is offline
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Re: Barn door

@Pedlars Pen,
no, it is all Noodlers Bulletproof Black ink....the light shade is from using very fine lines for cross hatching using Pilot Falcon SEF fountain pen......
Rahul
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Old 12-31-2014, 07:15 PM
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Re: Barn door

A quickie . . my contribution to the fracas . . and of course, I cheated with graphite . .
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Old 12-31-2014, 07:44 PM
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Jeffro Jones Jeffro Jones is offline
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Re: Hatching versus Crosshatching

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
this directional quality can emphasize height when used vertically or lead to a more static peaceful feeling when used horizontally.

I'm sure it was these reasons that led writers like Maginnis to encourage directional strokes in preference to cross-hatching.

However, he did talk about the usefulness of cross-hatching where the strokes crossed each other at a sharp angle. Thus, two sets of lines are overlaid, forming a cross-hatch:



In analyzing the structure of this style of cross-hatch (don't try this at home kids!) we can see that the ink lines and the white spaces between are both directional, so it does not interfere with directionality. Not bad!

:::
 


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