WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Pen and Ink > Pen and Ink Help Desk
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-30-2014, 04:08 PM
Olaf's Avatar
Olaf Olaf is offline
Lord of the Arts
Alaska
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,273
 
Re: Barn door

Quote:
It's fascinating that my request for advice has roused passions in favour of this or that technique! I know similar passions rage in the watercolour section, particularly over how to get your image on paper and what constitutes "cheating", as though some sort of art police are hovering out there waiting to nail us for some transgression. I think such strong convictions are good and I welcome the chance to pick and choose which passions I will adopt. At the moment I'm not enamoured of cross-hatching, but that may be because I'm not very good at it and I find it tedious. As I post more pieces I expect I'll find a style that pleases me and will be a compromise some will like and some not. Meanwhile I have the joy of the learning process and knowing I'm happily retired and don't have to sell anything so I can satisfy my own creative needs at my own speed. Keep the comments coming everyone. Let the passion run wild!

Bingo! It's all a matter of what pleases the person doing the drawing. Every style has its strengths and weaknesses.

This is art, not science . . there is no rigidly "correct" way of rendering whatever. One person likes cross-hatching, another likes directional lines, still another likes stippling.

"To each his own" —Cicero
  #17   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-30-2014, 08:05 PM
Jeffro Jones's Avatar
Jeffro Jones Jeffro Jones is offline
Enthusiast
Melbourne
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,189
 
Hails from Australia
Re: Barn door

Posting your source picture was a good idea, making it clear what you were working with.
I've taken the liberty of doing a rough sketch to illustrate my point on cross-hatching.
Because cross-hatching tends to deaden areas, it can safely be used in "dead areas", if you see what I mean.
Such as the deep shadow behind the planks of the door.
I would not use it on the planks, because I want that area "alive", not "dead", so I use directional shading there.



That also has the benefit of differentiating between the shadows of the hinges and the shade behind the door, which were too similar.
Here's a detail so you can see the line:




This sketch is using the Zebra G Nib on 8"x6" cartridge.
BTW, I notice you list quite a few pen sizes... I tend to just use one... IMO the uniformity of line helps the image integrate.

::::
  #18   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:28 PM
Watercolour lover's Avatar
Watercolour lover Watercolour lover is offline
Enthusiast
Ontario, Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,892
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Barn door

Thanks Jeffro. I see what you mean now.
  #19   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-30-2014, 11:11 PM
Batman55's Avatar
Batman55 Batman55 is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,219
 
Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf
Personally, I find your treatment of shadow perfectly fine.

I don't at all understand by what authority, other than personal preference, directional/textural shading is imagined to be superior to cross-hatching and that cross-hatching is the unimaginative refuge of novices/beginners.

This is art, not science.

Agree completely.. occasionally opinions here are delivered in an overly harsh tone, perhaps unintentionally, perhaps not.. I would think this one about cross-hatching was a bit heavy.. but anyway, carry on.
  #20   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-30-2014, 11:19 PM
Batman55's Avatar
Batman55 Batman55 is offline
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,219
 
Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegill
I agree. I try to use a wide variety of pen strokes and shading methods, but crosshatching holds a dear place in my heart.

Regarding this drawing, I like it, well done! I do agree about the confusing nature of the stones on the left, but that has less to do with your penwork and more to do with the choice to portray it as it is in the photo. I often run into trouble (much bigger trouble than you ran into here, in my opinion) when I try to depict something that seems pretty straight-forward when viewed in real life or a subject photo, but which just does not translate well into a drawn or painted image. I have found spotting that sort of thing in advance to be a skill acquired with great difficulty, and I'm still not good at it.

Agree. The stones to the left of the door were confusing for me as well. I wonder if a decent workaround in this case would have been to simply create a new texture better suited to pen-work, either via one's imagination or from looking at another photographic reference. I've sometimes done this, when all else fails.
  #21   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 01:06 AM
Davkin's Avatar
Davkin Davkin is offline
A Local Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,565
 
Hails from United States
Re: Barn door

I'm surprised about the confusion over the stones, they read perfectly to me.
__________________
David
  #22   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 02:21 AM
Martin1974 Martin1974 is offline
Senior Member
Europe
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 428
 
Hails from European Union
Re: Barn door

Interesting discussion about cross-hatching. I allways wondered why it was so hotly rejected in many articels and books mainly in the 1920th and 1930th (Jeffro's Rico example is from one of these). But maybe I got a glimpse of the problem by Jeffro's "dead" vs. "alive" methaphers. Can you explain a bit more what you mean by this, Jeffro?
__________________
Comments, critique, hints, suggestions are allways welcome.
  #23   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 02:45 AM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,400
 
Hatching versus Crosshatching

Cross hatching is an ancient P&I technique of course & undoubtedly has a place , personally I hardly ever use it.
The aesthetic where this negative view on hatching originates & is founded upon the fact that P&I is by it's very nature a linear medium & within a single drawing every line should be beautiful & complete in itself , able to stand by itself. Lines put close together intended to be read as a tone are no exception to this beautiful line maxim.
There are many P&I drawings I see here & elsewhere that pay no regard to this fundamental understanding & are all the poorer for it, sometimes it is the one thing that is missing in a persons technique nevertheless it is fatal to the appearance & impact of his work.
Hatching alone (as opposed to crosshatching) can cover all the tones a penman needs whilst retaining a directional charge of power, this directional quality can emphasize height when used vertically or lead to a more static peaceful feeling when used horizontally.
It allows for two objects next to each other in a drawing to be differentiated even if they are of a similar tone.
It can describe both contours, texture & tone - all at the same time!
Very importantly hatching allows you to use it's strong directional force to lead the viewers' eye around a composition in a manner prescribed by the artist .
Now compare these vital artistic virtues of texture + hatching to the dead & static dullness of crosshatching - do you see ?
  #24   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 08:19 AM
Martin1974 Martin1974 is offline
Senior Member
Europe
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 428
 
Hails from European Union
Re: Barn door

Good point, Mr. Pen.
__________________
Comments, critique, hints, suggestions are allways welcome.
  #25   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 08:27 AM
Jeffro Jones's Avatar
Jeffro Jones Jeffro Jones is offline
Enthusiast
Melbourne
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,189
 
Hails from Australia
Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin1974
But maybe I got a glimpse of the problem by Jeffro's "dead" vs. "alive" methaphers. Can you explain a bit more what you mean by this, Jeffro?

Pedlar's Pen points are all relevant and well made. I will add that one reason I label cross-hatching as "dead space" is that surfaces in a drawing have a tendency to direction.
For example, the surface of a tree trunk goes up and down.
If the lines that shade it go up and down, that adds vitality to the implicit movement of the trunk.
If it is shaded with cross-hatching, because the lines go in all different directions, that kills the vitality of the movement, and we have dead space.

Here we have two birds:



We can easily see how the directional shading adds to the vitality of the form of the top bird, whereas the cross-hatching of the bottom bird tends to a more static effect.
There is another point to make, too. Here I refer to a picture just below, of two pals, Ted and Frank:



Clearly they both have beautiful heads of hair. Ted has lovely flowing locks, and Frank has a thick thatch of dark hair.
Frank's hair has been rendered with cross-hatching, and here's the rub: it has made a pattern.
Cross-hatching always makes a pattern, and that may create an unintended effect in the drawing.
The drawer may NOT REALISE they have made a pattern.
They may innocently believe they have simply created a tonal value, blind to the fact that a weird pattern now inhabits part of their drawing.
This is the common novice mistake of cross-hatching, and a very good reason to use directional or textural effects instead

When I use cross-hatching, I like to be sure that
1: the area is a still, dark area, not in the foreground, as the area will appear static.
2: I'm not making an unintended pattern, and inadvertently creating a comic effect, like the side of Archie's head.


:::
  #26   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 08:39 AM
Martin1974 Martin1974 is offline
Senior Member
Europe
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 428
 
Hails from European Union
Re: Barn door

OK, that's rather convincing. Thank you!
__________________
Comments, critique, hints, suggestions are allways welcome.
  #27   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 08:48 AM
Jeffro Jones's Avatar
Jeffro Jones Jeffro Jones is offline
Enthusiast
Melbourne
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,189
 
Hails from Australia
Re: Barn door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin1974
OK, that's rather convincing. Thank you!
You're very welcome.
Martin I notice you are using many of these ideas already in your drawing. The textural marks, and use of directional lines in the hills and rocks of your landscape are quite effective, and your work become more dynamic because of it.
  #28   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 10:22 AM
Olaf's Avatar
Olaf Olaf is offline
Lord of the Arts
Alaska
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,273
 
Re: Barn door

I've found this book very helpful . . discusses amd explains a myriad of pen strokes and their uses, their strengths and weaknesses . .

. . hard to argue with the author's advice . . or with her results . .
Attached Images
   
  #29   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 11:04 AM
Rahul_jain Rahul_jain is offline
Senior Member
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 400
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Barn door

I found the image quite interesting and thought would give it a try. Here is my attempt focusing on hinges only, where I have tried to capture sense of light and shadow. with regards to use of any specific technique, I would suggest to experiment with them all and see which one you like and are good at as in most cases it is a personal preference. But usually it is good to use contour lines/directional hatching if you are trying to capture a form as I have done with the barrel of the hinge. also try to combine different strokes, like I have added few stipples in flat part of hinge (over cross hatching) to give it rough texture (probably not visible at this resolution).
I will add more details to wood when I finish this. The drawing is around 9 by 4.5 inches on Mixed Media paper using Pilot Falcon SEF Fountain pen with Noodlers black ink.
here is link to detailed image if you want to see close up

https://pendrawings.files.wordpress....nges_tg_2k.gif

and good luck with your journey in the fascinating world of pen and ink.

Rahul


__________________
Learn to Draw Landscapes with Free Pen and Ink Tutorials.
www.pendrawings.me/getstarted
  #30   Report Bad Post  
Old 12-31-2014, 11:21 AM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
Lord of the Arts
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,400
 
Re: Barn door

At the end of the day Olaf, we all have to follow our own idea of what is beautiful.
I flicked though some Claudia Nice books on Amazon & found her drawings to be static & lacking in personality or life.
So she's not for me, I just don't find her drawings in the least bit inspiring at all yet you obviously do.
I think the recent thread where we all posted up some of our all time favourite pen & inks showed that tastes were very varied & only on 1 or 2 drawings was there universal agreement ! I was amazed that people weren't absolutely blown away by some of the stuff I put up & yet wasn't in the least bit moved by some of the other posters choices.
Some of the differences in taste come from our differing backgrounds/ how we got into P&I as a medium - I studied a lot of the late 19th- early 20th century stuff & think it is as the pinnacle of the medium just as the renaissance is considered a peak of achievement in painting & perhaps never bettered.
Others for instance may have been inspired by graphic novels or comics & have little knowledge about other approaches when their style was emerging & their aesthetic judgement being formed.
The upshot of this is that one artist may be quite at a loss as to why another artist thinks or works in a certain way - it's a matter of background.
Now there is definitely no right & wrong , if it were high jump we could get the measuring tape out & workout who the winner is ! but art isn't like that of course .
So whilst we ALL think we are right & the person expressing a view at variance with our own view in someway understands less than us - it really isn't true at all !
What we should all agree on is that pen & ink is at the same time both a limited art medium & also one which is capable of a very wide range of expressions - each as individual as the artist .
Mike
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:38 PM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.