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Old 10-24-2015, 09:11 AM
katwalk katwalk is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Batman

I think you would like the Copic Multiliners, if you aren't sure you can purchase some of the disposables to try out the various tip sizes. There is a little bit of difference between the disposable pens and the aluminum body replaceables, but not much. The .05 really gives a fine line, sometimes too fine which is why I tend to start with the .03.
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:50 AM
Rahul_jain Rahul_jain is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
Ah thanks for that Rahul, my favourite is is a a platinum UEF, Ultra extra fine, they are guaranteed for use with platinum carbon ink.They are a step down in line width from any other pen. The quality is excellent & I've probably drawn more with that pen than any other pen outside of dip pens. I didn't want to recommend it though as it is too big an investment for someone just wanting to try out a type of pen - the very people this piece was written for.
Your endorsement of the Pilot penmanship I do have reservations about because it is the least reliable & most temperamental about starting & missing - mostly due to poor alignment of the nib tines. A slightly more expensive pilot though is definitely a top contender , they do make brilliant pens.
I'll stick with my recommendation of the preppy EF as the cheapest way to experiment with Japanese EF pens- Although do concede that the plastic top & case are very flimsy.
More than anything I would have liked to have talked about how to adjust fountain pens because you can tune even quite a cheap one to work excellently if you know what you are doing but feel that is is beyond a lot of peoples interest/ boredom threshold !
Mike

Have to say I have had just the opposite experience...I never had any issues with Pilot penmanship FPs and I quite like their grip with prevents the pen from rotating in your grip..also the plastic construction of these pens is quite sturdier than Platinum preppy EF as you mentioned. Based on reviews I have seen at may FP websites, this seems to be the consensus.
The good thing I guess is that both these pens are cheap enough to be owned and tried and own opinion arrived at. The best pen is the one that works for you.
Rahul
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Old 10-24-2015, 11:40 PM
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Batman55 Batman55 is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by katwalk
Batman

I think you would like the Copic Multiliners, if you aren't sure you can purchase some of the disposables to try out the various tip sizes. There is a little bit of difference between the disposable pens and the aluminum body replaceables, but not much. The .05 really gives a fine line, sometimes too fine which is why I tend to start with the .03.

OK did a test of my 5 pens here is the line comparison, and it looks like the .03 is a finer line that the .05 which makes sense of course, don't know why I was thinking it was the other way around.

This is a bit confusing, now...
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:47 PM
katwalk katwalk is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Oops, though I typed that the other way around, the .05 is thinner than the .03 if you look at the line comparisons - but at this point I can't edit.
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:36 PM
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Charlie's Mum Charlie's Mum is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Kathy - I can edit for you - but - to me, in your illustration, the .03 is the finer line! ... and you make that point in post #11
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:53 AM
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie's Mum
Kathy - I can edit for you - but - to me, in your illustration, the .03 is the finer line! ... and you make that point in post #11

That's what I was saying.. but it's not a big deal, in the grand scheme of things! I'll just find out for myself.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:36 AM
katwalk katwalk is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

LOL I give up, right now my brain is fuzzed, so people will just have to try them for themselves to see which they like better the .03 or the .05 both are fine lines, and which one is finer I think might depend on the tip and how much wear there might be on it. Maureen leave it as it is for the moment, unless you want to edit to say that the lines are very similar and should be judged by each individual as to which they would rather have. I have noticed this with other pens that create fine lines, it doesn't take much wear on a tip to start getting confused about which one actually makes a finer line.
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:52 AM
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

I'll leave it!
Actually, the point (pardon the pun!) about wear is valid - so folks .....

...........Judge for yourselves!
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:16 PM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Well I stick by my original comment in the thread about the Copics - "but their tiny 0.03 size pen was perhaps too ambitious as it never lives as long as its ink supply."
I too was confused about whether the 0.03 was finer or not than their 0.05.
I used to love my 0.03 Copic yet I could literally feel that it was the most delicate of pens consequently I would only every use it if the situation really demanded it but it made little difference to it's all too brief life.
The true answer must surely be - yes their 0.03 multiliners are in fact finer then their 0.05 size BUT only when they are brand new & hardly used.
Within a very short time despite the most gentle of use on the smoothest of bristol or marker board they at first give a wider line & quite soon after cease to work at all.
I would still not recommend their smallest size , this phenomena is not unusual among a number of pen manufactures, I can think of two other others who have had to withdraw their super micro lined sizes after a load of reports of failure & unreliability.
I might add that in the gel pen world the legendary G4 pen that is very reliable & runs consistently until the last drop of ink every time has had a recent addition to its family, a 0.25 roller ball that gives a hair like line - SAME OLD STORY I'm afraid , I bought 4 of them & they all died after doing a small portion of a single drawing each. I wish they would withdraw them too.
A fine line is an absolute holy grail for pen manufacturers, it's not just artists who like them so much but in their home market in Japan there is a massive market for pens which write the Japanese writing characters really small. There is therefore massive commercial incentive for pen makers to push their design parameters too far & they regularly do - I think they risk their reputation by doing so.
The next time I see the latest Super micro fine lined pen come out , I will be very cynical about it's longevity.
Cheers Mike
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Old 02-12-2016, 11:23 PM
EMMAJI EMMAJI is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

I have used all mediums during my life.....oils, acrylics, pens, etc.

Right now I want to do some quicker drawings in black & white. The problem is that I want some large areas to be completely black.....so I have been using large felt pens along with thin-line drawing pens.

And then I discovered the toxicity of some of these felt pens....with xylene & toluene and other ingredients.

Where can I find info about the toxicity of felt pens?

Sorry to change the subject so abruptly....perhaps there is another place to post this query?
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Old 02-13-2016, 04:54 AM
pedlars pen pedlars pen is online now
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Don't worry you're not drifting off topic at all, anything about pens is fine in this thread, especially hitherto neglected topics.

Hmmm toxicity? well I'm not a biologist or chemist & it doesn't even occur to me to worry about the issue. Until now!

Having read your question though I did google the issue & this scientific paper on the issue came up http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12746130

Here 8 popular felt tip pens were tested & the mice were exposed to the typical levels of chemicals that you get exposed to in normal use.
Disturbingly - all the tested pens had a measurable effect on the mice -
" Sensory irritation (SI), pulmonary irritation (PI), and/or air flow limitation (AFL) of differing intensities were documented with each of the eight brands tested. At the peak of the effects, the largest SI was observed with pen F (72% of the breaths); the largest PI occurred with pen D (13% of the breaths), and the largest AFL was seen with pen F (25% of the breaths). Pens G and H produced minimal SI, PI, or AFL. A functional observational battery was used to screen for signs of neurotoxicity. Emissions from all eight of the pens produced behavioral abnormalities such as altered posture and gait, tremors, falling, and hyperactivity. "
It concludes with the sentence -"These results provide a toxicological explanation for some of the human complaints concerning respiratory and neurological reactions to marking pen emissions".

Don't forget this study only covered the acute (immediate & short term) NOT the proven long term effects of these chemicals.

Maybe I SHOULD be more concerned with this issue !
I know 30 odd years ago if you were using a great big fat chisel tip marker you could smell the volatile chemicals & would get a headache after 5 minutes use !
You were advised to use them in a well ventilated space, you KNEW without doubt they were toxic !
Nowadays the effect is not so noticeable BUT there are very obviously still safety issues surrounding the use of felt pens most especially for artists who might sit for hours a day after day inhaling these fumes.

If you Google - what are the effects of long term exposure to either of the two chemicals you mention there is a wealth of information about the amounts & the time for which you are exposed & to how much variables - Even the most cynical guy (like me) who will say "where ?" when someone cries "wolf !" must conclude that there are most definitely heath concerns about using these felt pens for long periods over the years.

I'm not sure if any manufacturer will tell you their ink formula including amounts & all the chemicals they put in but you can be sure that all felt tip type pens do require a volatile solvent to work at all.
You might also like to calculate how many hours you spend with your nose pressed up against the drawing board - per day, per month, per year & for how many years ? & come to your own judgement.
Mike
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:05 AM
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hazegry hazegry is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

I like to use rotiring Art Pen f for sketching but its not waterproof, I found my copic markers dont disturb the ink so I can still add color
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:22 AM
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

hazegry, I love the rotring too! Did you know that you can get a converter and fill them with waterproof fountain pen ink, or any fountain pen ink for that matter? I personally like Noodler's Lexington Grey. It doesn't budge with water.
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Old 02-13-2016, 06:31 PM
EMMAJI EMMAJI is offline
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by pedlars pen
Don't worry you're not drifting off topic at all, anything about pens is fine in this thread, especially hitherto neglected topics.

Hmmm toxicity? well I'm not a biologist or chemist & it doesn't even occur to me to worry about the issue. Until now!

Having read your question though I did google the issue & this scientific paper on the issue came up http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12746130

Here 8 popular felt tip pens were tested & the mice were exposed to the typical levels of chemicals that you get exposed to in normal use.
Disturbingly - all the tested pens had a measurable effect on the mice -
" Sensory irritation (SI), pulmonary irritation (PI), and/or air flow limitation (AFL) of differing intensities were documented with each of the eight brands tested. At the peak of the effects, the largest SI was observed with pen F (72% of the breaths); the largest PI occurred with pen D (13% of the breaths), and the largest AFL was seen with pen F (25% of the breaths). Pens G and H produced minimal SI, PI, or AFL. A functional observational battery was used to screen for signs of neurotoxicity. Emissions from all eight of the pens produced behavioral abnormalities such as altered posture and gait, tremors, falling, and hyperactivity. "
It concludes with the sentence -"These results provide a toxicological explanation for some of the human complaints concerning respiratory and neurological reactions to marking pen emissions".

Don't forget this study only covered the acute (immediate & short term) NOT the proven long term effects of these chemicals.

Maybe I SHOULD be more concerned with this issue !
I know 30 odd years ago if you were using a great big fat chisel tip marker you could smell the volatile chemicals & would get a headache after 5 minutes use !
You were advised to use them in a well ventilated space, you KNEW without doubt they were toxic !
Nowadays the effect is not so noticeable BUT there are very obviously still safety issues surrounding the use of felt pens most especially for artists who might sit for hours a day after day inhaling these fumes.

If you Google - what are the effects of long term exposure to either of the two chemicals you mention there is a wealth of information about the amounts & the time for which you are exposed & to how much variables - Even the most cynical guy (like me) who will say "where ?" when someone cries "wolf !" must conclude that there are most definitely heath concerns about using these felt pens for long periods over the years.

I'm not sure if any manufacturer will tell you their ink formula including amounts & all the chemicals they put in but you can be sure that all felt tip type pens do require a volatile solvent to work at all.
You might also like to calculate how many hours you spend with your nose pressed up against the drawing board - per day, per month, per year & for how many years ? & come to your own judgement.
Mike

Hi Mike.....thanks for the very detailed and informative letter. Unfortunately the mice test did not say which type of pen they were using.
I am finding out that all felt pens are very different and , as you say, they all need a solvent. Some still use xylene or toluene and are to be avoided completely, no matter how short a time you use them.

Many others use alcohol which is OK and I just have to study different brands to see what's in them.

If they have a circle on them that says AP with the letters ACMI around the circle, then they are considered non-toxic. However, I am sure that there are non-toxic ones that do not have the seal (such as European ones).

So I will continue my research and let you know what I find out.
Thanks again for your reply!
Louise
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Old 02-13-2016, 08:03 PM
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Re: The Different Types of Pens Used by Artists

Louise and Mike, toxicity has never crossed my mind! After reading this I looked at the pens and markers I use. Many do not have the seal, but interestingly the Sakura Pigma Microns, Prismacolor markers, and the humble Sharpie do have the seal!
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