Drawing with the arm (update!) - WetCanvas: Online Living for Artists

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April 21, 2018 at 12:10 am #454906
Batman55
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A wee while ago, I put up a thread about my quest to learn “proper” inking technique.. that is, to stop relying on the wrist so much, and start drawing from the elbow/arm. The point being–drawing from the wrist only, has several glaring limitations including the slow-speed of action required, the “wrist fatigue”, as well as inability to draw long fluid lines. I said, “let’s fix that.” To do so, I had to learn arm drawing. And of course, it has been said hundreds of times, it does not come easy to learn this.. practice, practice, and so on.

So, I have done at least 50 practice sessions on paper. The goal was to hatch lines–using the elbow/arm only–all in the same angle and preferably evenly spaced. While there was definite improvement between practice #1 and #50, the final result was disappointing. The pen I used for every practice was the “easiest” and most efficient pen possible–the Uniball Signo.

I tried doing a “regular” still life drawing after practice #50, using the arm technique only. Even trying my best, the result was very disappointing. Half the time, I could not get the pen to stop within bounds (outlines of objects.) The hatching was unevenly spaced, as a rule. The only promising thing is most lines were “steady enough” but even that wasn’t uniform.

Based on all the practice I have done so far and having used many of the tips suggested, and still getting “poor” results I am starting to question the assumption that “every pen artist always draws from the arm.” From my perspective, it is plainly *untenable* to make a tight/small-scale drawing using just the arm. That does not look possible to me, from where I stand right now. Even looking at Youtube videos of “pro artists” who claim to draw with just the arm, their videos are full of lines veering off one way or another, uneven spacing, too short or too long, etc. Something here, is awry.

What DOES it work for, then? It seems that arm drawing works for “long/fluid steady lines” which don’t need exact placement (the outline of a tree or its branches.) It may work for a “loose” scribbly style of pen-work. It would work for filling in large hatched spaces–a craggy basement wall, for example.

As it stands, I do not see how this can be used to make “tight” pen drawings that require precise placement and spacing. Even things like keeping lines within bounds–when you have to strike the pen quickly (as demanded by this style) it is very hard to make it stop exactly on demand. For instance, what I ended up with was hatching a vase with many lines spilling off the edge.

I’ve tried all manner of things. Unless I’m still doing something wrong or perhaps “subconsiously” moving my wrist (a possibility given the habit is so ingrained), the bottom line is, this method does not seem usable for even semi-detailed pen-drawing.

Any comments/suggestions welcome although I have tried many things by now. I welcome links to a video that shows a pen-artist using “just the arm” and making a detailed/tight drawing. I’m beginning to wonder if that’s even possible, at this point.
April 21, 2018 at 7:06 am #608351
Charlies Mum Administrator (Maureen)
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I do think we all ‘temper’ our style/technique in any drawing to the size of the paper or object being tackled.
(But, at all times allow space, physically, for the arm movement).

When needing to confine lines (at an edge) have you tried actually masking that edge with a paper edge/cut-out shape? This is an often-used ‘aid’ and not cheating!:lol:
If you can’t hold the paper in place, try masking tape/artists’ tape.
You can try it drawing away from the cover/mask or drawing up to it, or both ……. even a ruler held against the edge will stop your pen ….. not using it to draw the line but to stop the pen line at an angle.

Drawing regularly spaced lines will obviously require a more controlled movement, slower but you still employ as much arm movement as needed, depending on size/length.

Post an example of your frustrated attempts – it might help us think of more tips.:)

Cheers, Maureen

Forum projects: Plant Parade projects in the Florals/Botanicals forum , WDE in the All Media Art Events , Different Strokes in Acrylics forum .
April 21, 2018 at 11:34 am #608366
Anonymous
I don’t use crosshatching so am no expert but a couple of things come to my mind.

The first is that often the crosshatching is made of small sections so there would be little to gain by using your whole arm.
Even a large area to be hatched is often made up of smaller “tiles” of hatching which merge together to read as a large single piece without any apparent join – Again no need for a drawing from the shoulder approach.
Drawing from the shoulder is brilliant for outline & larger drawings but not so much for hatching.
I think this Dan Nelson is interesting – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHoqh27vQRw & has more on u tube on crosshatching.
Mike
April 21, 2018 at 11:44 pm #608375
Batman55
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When needing to confine lines (at an edge) have you tried actually masking that edge with a paper edge/cut-out shape? This is an often-used ‘aid’ and not cheating!:lol:
[/quote]

I definitely have considered this. I was hoping I would *not* have to resort to it, but now, that’s worth a rethink.

Drawing regularly spaced lines will obviously require a more controlled movement, slower but you still employ as much arm movement as needed, depending on size/length.
[/quote]

I’ve tried all manner of variations with slow speed of hatching.. fast speed.. “medium” speed.. strong pen grip, lighter.. more manual focus, less.. thus far, nothing suffices to get the results desired.

Going slower helps with even spacing, but then the lines wobble too much. Faster helps with steady lines, but then you lose even-spacing and the lines end up short or long (the “off the edge” problem I mentioned.)

Perhaps I have awful fine motor skills or shaky hands, and that’s why it doesn’t work.

Another possibility is that this “drawing from the arm” is just *not* often used by pen artists who require a tight/detailed style. At this point I would like to question the assumption that every pen artist just draws from the arm. Where is the evidence that supports this notion?

At the end of the day, we’re left with the fact that a pen is a profoundly sensitive tool and a permanent one at that. You cannot afford to make mistakes if your style is detailed. Drawing from the wrist affords much more control, barring the problem of longer lines.

Pen artists who draw big and use long lines w/ a detailed approach… this boggles the mind from where I stand. I don’t see how it’s possible, not at this point anyway.
April 22, 2018 at 12:05 am #608376
Batman55
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I don’t use crosshatching so am no expert but a couple of things come to my mind.
[/quote]

You are well-acquainted with Booth’s drawings which use a lot of hatching (even if he doesn’t use cross-hatching much.) Has there been anything said about his physical drawing technique? Again, from where I stand and with the knowledge that his original works are small-scale, I’m thinking he couldn’t have had that incredibly tight/detailed style with just arm-drawing.

[QUOTE=pedlars pen]
The first is that often the crosshatching is made of small sections so there would be little to gain by using your whole arm.
Even a large area to be hatched is often made up of smaller “tiles” of hatching which merge together to read as a large single piece without any apparent join – Again no need for a drawing from the shoulder approach.
[/quote]

This is pretty much the conclusion I came to. You can’t really have tightly controlled hatching with an “arm-swing” motion. Even [I]long [/I]hatched lines don’t seem drawn to order, unless it’s a part of the drawing that doesn’t need much control in the first place.

[QUOTE=pedlars pen]
Drawing from the shoulder is brilliant for outline & larger drawings but not so much for hatching.
I think this Dan Nelson is interesting – [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHoqh27vQRw[/url] & has more on u tube on crosshatching.
Mike

I agree. It works for some types of outlines and generally should be used for larger drawings (which may allow for less accuracy of individual lines.)

The Dan Nelson video is interesting and it’s close to my style. It’s very plain to my eyes, that he does not use the arm for hatching.. at all. I’m not even sure if he used the arm for outline.

The rub is.. how can you explain hyper-detailed work done at large scale, using long lines, like with Aaron Horkey’s work? There is the question of talent and practice, but I think you’d agree it almost looks impossible. :confused:
April 22, 2018 at 4:00 pm #608367
Anonymous
Hi Batman, here’s an old thread – https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=622050 which you might find illuminating about Booth & his techniques.
& here’s an insightful interview with with Horkey. http://www.erraticphenomena.com/2012/05/aaron-horkeys-postapocalyptic.html

BIG HINT – Both of these artists work or worked on very large sized pieces of paper & then it was printed at a smaller size which makes the drawing tighter looking .This is standard practice with pen & ink line work even now.

I wouldn’t spend too much more time on trying to develop a machine like hand when you can practice human hand type drawings !

Mike
April 23, 2018 at 12:04 am #608377
Batman55
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I appreciate your reply, but I’m afraid I’m no further to the answers I am seeking, I went through both links and there is no information about the kind of drawing-motion either artist uses.

I am insistent and stubborn about this issue now… I’m actually reaching out to working pen artists via email–if they have the chance to reply, I’m not expecting anything–to see what I can find out.

I believe the assumption we have going–that “all professionals” only use the arm when working, or even that it makes up the bulk of their work–is incorrect. I have now my own, actual experience to back up this assumption. My own experience shows that you *cannot* use the whole arm for the purpose of deft, highly detailed work. That’s a method you can achieve with careful, slow and deliberate work with the hand/wrist; no other way.

BIG HINT – Both of these artists work or worked on very large sized pieces of paper & then it was printed at a smaller size which makes the drawing tighter looking .This is standard practice with pen & ink line work even now.

I wouldn’t spend too much more time on trying to develop a machine like hand when you can practice human hand type drawings !

Mike[/QUOTE]

I recall a while back I asked about Franklin Booth’s working size, and you replied something to the effect of “he actually worked at a 1:1 scale most of the time.” If memory does not falter, that’s what you said; essentially, that he worked small scale and did not reduce his work much, if at all.

Regarding Horkey, while he does work large, his preferred version of his pen-work is actually *enlarged* instead of reduced. His prints are much larger than his original drawings. This is one of several reasons I am asking “how is it even possible?” Because apparently the detail is not lost at the greater size, it’s (paradoxically) even more apparent.

For anyone else reading, feel free to add your 2 cents. I’m afraid this is another case where I won’t be satisfied until I find a satisfactory answer. (The dearth of information on this important aspect of pen-craft, is actually quite shocking, IMHO.)
April 23, 2018 at 5:32 am #608355
tiago.dagostini
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It is not the where, but the how big the lines are. If you want to draw lines 2 cm long then your wrist has all the range needed. But if you try to draw a 15-20cm line then you will need to use the elbow/shoulder to get a single line. No one would use the shoulder to do a 1cm x 1cm square with heavy cross hatching (not because one cannot, but because it is slow and tense up your shoulder, what will get you tired). If I want I can do an elbow only 2 cm long cross hatching with very precise markings, the more time you practice the easier it gets.

And when people say draw using the shoulder that does not mean exclusively the shoulder. It means the preponderant translation comes from the shoulder, the other joins are needed to give stability and accuracy. The more you get used to having each joint in a different role the less complicated the job of each one is (that is specially important with brushes and dip pens that need action to keep them aligned and lifting correctly from the paper)

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
April 23, 2018 at 11:41 pm #608378
Batman55
Default
If I want I can do an elbow only 2 cm long cross hatching with very precise markings, the more time you practice the easier it gets.
[/quote]

This is exactly what I have practiced for at least 50 different sessions. I used the “swing from the elbow” motion on a flat desk.

It does not become precise, not even with practice. I challenge the assumption. I have tried endlessly. You can get adequate “steady lines” but you cannot get evenly-spaced lines. So, no offense, but I have trouble with your claim.

The good thing as I realize now, it’s not even necessary to do so since I tend to work on a small scale anyway.

But if you try to draw a 15-20cm line then you will need to use the elbow/shoulder to get a single line.
[/quote]

I agree. This was the problem that led me to explore “proper technique” in the first place.

The way I’ve always handled long lines was to use the wrist to the furthest extent, stop, and rejoin with another line–if you do this carefully, the viewer won’t notice the “joined” line.

It’s still not reliable enough, you can get wobbly lines with that kind of wrist motion, it’s clumsy. That’s why I wanted to learn the “right way.”

Having tried my best and finding it’s not possible to achieve good results.. I am challenging assumptions. Could it be that large scale pen work may not be done with the arm? Think of it this way: There’s no way anyone can control a long pen line seamlessly AND expect to get even spacing, at the same time. It’s just not possible.

Laugh if you must, but I won’t believe it until I see it. The only video of Aaron Horkey working is him working on small portions of his “large scale” drawing with a pencil. If there is no testimony available, no direct proof that pen artists can make long, perfectly spaced lines using an arm/shoulder motion, I don’t see why I should believe it.

I’m surprised this site doesn’t have anyone willing to debate, provide evidence, rise to the challenge, etc. All contributions are welcome as long as it’s kept civil.
April 24, 2018 at 3:51 am #608364
Shanec
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You seem quite determined for someone to prove your theory wrong batman.

I’ve seen large pen drawings on canvas with some very long lines, a bridge in particular, although I can’t prove it or replicate it either.

I tend to use the wrist and join longer lines together and you’re right in that you can make them appear seemless, particularly with tight hatching. It becomes even easier when you have hatching in 3 or 4 directions.

Anyway why do the lines have to be perfectly straight and have even spacings, we’re human not robots. Something to ponder perhaps.

I’ve been developing a scribbly, squigly technique lately, no straight lines there.

Shane

https://artbyshanec.com
April 24, 2018 at 5:19 am #608356
tiago.dagostini
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This is exactly what I have practiced for at least 50 different sessions. I used the “swing from the elbow” motion on a flat desk.

It does not become precise, not even with practice. I challenge the assumption. I have tried endlessly. You can get adequate “steady lines” but you cannot get evenly-spaced lines. So, no offense, but I have trouble with your claim.

I’m surprised this site doesn’t have anyone willing to debate, provide evidence, rise to the challenge, etc. All contributions are welcome as long as it’s kept civil.

Sorry but you are comiting a huge fallacy. Just because YOU FAIL, does not mean it is not possible. Can you run 100m in less than 10 seconds? Yet there is tons of footage of Usain Bolt doing that.

50 sessions is NOT LONG TRAINING. Took me YEARS, literally drawing at least a bit EVERYDAY to have the control that I have now.

There is no huge debate about that because there is FAR FAR more evidence that it is possible (the whole school and methods that trained artists for 300 years, with hundreds of thousands of people that succeeded) than that is impossible. Just check ANY painting of a great master. If you use your fingers to move the brush you change the pressure and form of the tip while it drags and you have a horrible result with variation at width. Every single high precision stroke ever made that intended to keep a steady color was made with elbow and shoulder as main component and the fingers as dampeners. In a lesser degree you have the same issue with dip pens. If you want to not vary the width you NEED to use your larger joints.

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
April 24, 2018 at 5:22 am #608357
tiago.dagostini
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You seem quite determined for someone to prove your theory wrong batman.

I’ve seen large pen drawings on canvas with some very long lines, a bridge in particular, although I can’t prove it or replicate it either.

I tend to use the wrist and join longer lines together and you’re right in that you can make them appear seemless, particularly with tight hatching. It becomes even easier when you have hatching in 3 or 4 directions.

Anyway why do the lines have to be perfectly straight and have even spacings, we’re human not robots. Something to ponder perhaps.

I’ve been developing a scribbly, squigly technique lately, no straight lines there.

they do not need to be straight, but you need to have control to transmit the motion that you wanted to transmit, the marks should not be there because you where awkwardly positioned at your desk, otherwise you will not be able to repeat them when you need :P

That is specially relevant with brushes that are not as forgiving as pens (they demand you use your fingers as stabilization only.

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
April 24, 2018 at 5:36 am #608365
Shanec
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Intereresting discussion, I tend to make marks I have no hope of repeating, regardless of tecnique when I’m “caught in the moment.”

Shane

https://artbyshanec.com
April 24, 2018 at 10:05 am #608352
Charlies Mum Administrator (Maureen)
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I’m at a loss as to what you actually want to achieve in your drawings Batman!

No-one will make you draw in a particular manner so if you’re more comfortable drawing your shorter lines and joining them up, do so …….. and if you want perfectly straight, evenly-spaced lines, use a ruler! Others may not wish to draw that way but you can if it achieves your goal.

As Tiago says, practice and attainment takes years rather than days and months! …. but even after 50 drawings, you must have improved?

I repeat my comment of earlier, you must always temper your method to the size of the work.

Cheers, Maureen

Forum projects: Plant Parade projects in the Florals/Botanicals forum , WDE in the All Media Art Events , Different Strokes in Acrylics forum .
April 24, 2018 at 4:12 pm #608368
Anonymous
I’m at a loss as to what you actually want to achieve in your drawings Batman!

Ideally THIS !:eek:
Franklin Booth a very famous & still much respected illustrator of the early 20th century.
When he was young he taught himself to draw in P&I mistakenly thinking that the wood engravings in the books of his youth were pen & ink drawings but they were NOT because photographic reproduction was not invented quite then .
Rather they were engravings done with a small sharp triangular tool called a Burin, now if you have ever used one you would know that it is a slow & exacting tool to use but it will inherently keep a steady & straight line with practice whether on steel plate or wood end grain.
So his style is totally based on that misunderstanding !:lol: However after going to art school for 4 years his style changed very little looking at the evidence of his drawings . He was very highly paid & many illustrators copied his style but no one ever got near the sheer artistry that he had alongside his craftsmans hand .
He remains a inspiration to each new generation of budding penmen still.
For myself I prefer the human feel of a hand drawn line , the wobble in it if you like but he undoubtedly was out of this world !
Watch this on a full sized computer screen -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOE0bWNLcp4

Here is an advert for a cable laying company, or a section of it any way,you can hardly see the lines as it is .
Mike
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