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Old 06-15-2004, 06:26 AM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

I can find several reasons. logical, revenue, industrial tricks as PS le dumping and on and on ...but still they wouldn't be enough...
..unless some big shot from adobe came and told you, hey don't you get it, why do you think we're giving away this or that software, its real value is 0 but it serves as revenue tricks and lots of other strategic situations that no company would ever reveal nor agree....but...still would be useless to delve deeper ....
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:24 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

I'm not convinced - you are not offering any real reasons why someone would be using open source software instead of Photoshop other than the fact it's free or some ideological reasons I was barely able to decipher from your posts. This being a "tips and tutes thread" I would expect more responsibility from a mod not to recommend something which is harder to use and has almost nil in form of support and documentation without any solid reasons to back it up. You see this sort of threads makes a much greater impact on newbies than it does on pros. The newbies that come here will interpret this sort of threads as pure fact since it's delivered by an authority and start downloading a bunch of software and find themselves halted in their creative progress for months since they can't figure out how something works and don't get help when they need it or even inspiration from tutorials or whatever - just because they were given a bad "tips". A pro might find the software you recommended useful and have no trouble whatsoever with it, but only because they are already familiar with other software with similar interfaces - like Photoshop. Of course, most pros will not even look in a thread like this, chances are, they already know about the open source alternatives - and if they are not using them already, they probably have tried it before and not liked it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Liera
No intention of being a clown but offering some facts...
... if those are their actual prices, then just chop off $99 from those prices and you'll be around their real value anyway...

I'm still waiting for the so called facts as you have provided none.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Liera
I can find several reasons. logical, revenue, industrial tricks as PS le dumping and on and on ...but still they wouldn't be enough...
..unless some big shot from adobe came and told you, hey don't you get it, why do you think we're giving away this or that software, its real value is 0 but it serves as revenue tricks and lots of other strategic situations that no company would ever reveal nor agree....but...still would be useless to delve deeper ....

I give away oil paintings as presents - I even do commissions for no profit sometimes. Does that mean that my art has no value simply because I give some of it away for free? Oh, other times I charge money for my work! OMG I'm such a RIPOFF!!!11 (and some artists wonder why it's so difficult to get a decent price for their work - well, it seems that by Jet's logic everything should be free as nothing has any value - the sad part is that there are A LOT of people that think this way)

Also, doesn't the open source people hand out their code for free? Does that mean it has no value either? Does that mean they are the shrewdest of businessmen - afterall, many of the bearded open source gurus of the nineties are millionaires today (one of many examples would be Linus Torvalds - the guy who wrote the Linux core). Did you know that, Jet? What are you trying to say? Or is your logic flawed?

Obviously Adobe have shrewd strategies to sell their products - like all companies - it's what they do, but their products are not worthless as you claimed, and not all of the profits drop down into the executives pockets.

I'm not protecting Adobe if that's what you think, personally I hate the pdf standard and don't use their reader to view .pdf-files for instance. But I use Photoshop Elements as it's a VERY affordable tool which has more than enough features to support my hobby, features, which are available in some extent in open source software, but never as well packaged and never as easy to use. And with so many people using Photoshop, there is never a shortage of tutorials, books and articles showing you new tricks and educating you on how to use the software creatively.

What you are forgetting is that there is more to developing this sort of graphics software than just coding and packaging. You assume that the few individuals that create this kind of software for free do all their developing from scratch, making it seem that what adobe does - a few individuals can do also, but cheaper. But this is a wrong assumption as all they really do is build an application, anyone who's got enough time can do that. In the heart of all these sort of software lies the mathematical algorithms that have been developed by mathematicians for decades, without this research there would be no Bezier paths, antialiasing etc... And although adobe hasn't been involved with all of this ground research themselves, it's companies like adobe that create the demand and often provide the funding for this kind of research.

And, most importantly these companies employ people like me to develop these algorithms. That is, once I graduate from college (I'm majoring in computer technology - which is not about coding like some people seem to think - it's about developing algorithms and finding new ways of using computers). I think the civil-engineers and scientists that do the brain-work to create these new ways for you to express yourself deserves a pay-check, don't you think?

I have nothing against open source, don't get me wrong, take for instance the guy who single handedly came up with the Bittorrent paradigm (creating a paradigm is in itself a huge deal) and then spent 2 years developing the software, and then gave it all away for free. That is freakin' HUGE - I admire people like that. But not all such people are idealists working for no pay, some of these geniuses, believe it or not, work for big companies. And that doesn't make their discoveries and scientific breakthrues any less worth.

And let's not forget the coders, they do their share as well, and the people that market, package, administer etc... and the cleaning lady that comes by the adobe offices and empties the trash-cans? If Adobe didn't exist - do you think more or less people would be employed? The people who give away their code for free are great, but they do it only because they can, and they can because they are not starving. Starting to see the big picture? I hate it when people say stuff like "the big companies they just screw you over" - it's not as simple as that.

"So what about Photoshop CS then?" you might say, "If Photoshop Elements is worth the bucks, what about it's bigger brother - which cost way more for just a few extra features?"

Photoshop CS retail price: $649.95

Naturally I would not recommend it to all users, for most people, the readers of this thread, the newbies, Elements is all you need - and it's so damn affordable you'll feel bad for ripping off Adobe when you go buy it. But to be honest, if you are a pro I think Photoshop CS is worth every damn penny - since it has a VERY powerful feature which Elements lacks: scriptability using javascript or applescript. That feature is in itself enough to justify the price gap for me. I would cut 50% of my work-time using scripts I write myself - to bad this is a mere hobby for me, if I was a professional artist I wouldn't even hesitate a second.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:33 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

I am going to jump in with my two cents here..Mostly because I like to Babble, but also because I want to give crystal a clear answer.

If you are new to digital Art, and think you have any interest in it what-so-ever, invest $99 US And buy the WACOM graphire3 tablet. This will do two things for you. First, it will give you PhotoShop Elements...which I DO like, I use it on my laptop...and painter classic...a good starter paint program.

Secondly, Having the tablet will give you quite a bit more room to explore your creativity. By no means does everyone use a tablet, but the value of the tablet bundled with two powerful programs would be hard to pass up..especially for a novice...just my opinion.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:12 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

1.-I don't recommend i lay down options as suggestions..
2.-a dollar value doesn't mean that you don't have to pay for it , it just means you're paying too much for it.
for example , an orange in the state of florida costs less than a penny (real value) and you have to pay something for it..that same orange in Japan costs $$$ the real value changes due to shipping and all it has to go through.
PhotoShop elements made in the states thrown out of the market by its own company higher versions, now PS 7 costs what , and PS 6, and PS 5.5 why?
My PS7 for me still is worth what i paid for it , BUT i can't sell it at that price why?
because Adobe made PS7 less valuable, so where does elements stand now?
PS/oranges are made in US it doesn't have to be imported, don't let publicity blind you, nor the so-called support your supposed to be paying....as for real value right now PS CE can be found in the streets of Mexico city at about 40-50 US dlls. is that the real value now...NO !!, because that's piracy, but... to the common people's point of view ..elements value doesn't exist.
3.- I won't go mixing personal issues or preferences of what anybody does to his personal belongings...
I have plenty with my own unexplaineable actions i perform everyday..
4.-I don't fight if it's not up on a bloody square...and this is one of my happiest days in my life for reasons i won't tell.
...So almost nothing can spoil that feeling ....And as for the Moderator job , I QUIT !....-

oh! what a wonderful world

while i was dancing with that señorita i was romancing la niña bonita
oh i remember the fun times with Sheila singing and dancing and drinking tequila

Heiyo ! Michael, care for a sip ?

while i'm tipsy i'll go an' buy abunsh o- those strriet coppiesss of PS8 and givvvve 'dem awaii to all my frrieenss of Soaked Canvas or whtevrrer..yyeeehhhaaww!!

......................
Please, don't support piracy !!
------------------------------
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Last edited by Jet Liera : 06-15-2004 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:30 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

You are making even less sence now than you did before, so I'm not going to debate this issue past this post unless you "sober up" and post some real arguments for a change.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:33 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

OI! my friend...Pass the bottle and the PS8

LOL...Congrats on a wonderous day!!!!
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:44 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

Captan, I don't understand your vitrol toward Open source and Freeware, they keep the big boys on there toes, and add greatly to the knowlege stream

Such a hot defence of the over priced PS is unnessary, Adobe takes good care of itself, which is great perhaps for the Pros that need "process colour " availability. I have used PS and have taken two courses to try to make it fit my work flow and it does have a few tricks I find useful but I'm not paying a 1000$Can or more just for a couple of tools I don't use often.

For the beginner PS would be the last program I'd recommend, PSP is much more intutive and has tons of free resources on line that are very accessable for the beginner Actually I'd be even more inclined to start a beginner of with any number of Freeware that are out ther to get them started without a huge outlay of scarce cash.. And particularly for the painters, I find PS, and PSP are both not easy to paint with, for those who are use to using natural media.

When Corel made Painter more like PS in its work flow I made me rather angry because until they returned the Costom pallet in the patch it was very awkward to use and the way they now customize brushes is still a thorn in my side as I can no longer customize on the fly like in earlier versions.

I haven't tried Gimp but I know many who have used it for years and love the program!

I just find the snobbery attached to PS very annoying just because it was the first out of the gate way back when doesn't mean it is the only player that can do the job, and yes PSP 8 can do just about everything PS does for a more asseable price and the PSP community is a lot more fun as a group they know how to laugh at themselves.

And yes I have PS 7 which someone who found the program too difficult to use for what they wanted it for, gave me, and I do use it on occassion but I would never have gone out and bought it I don't have that kind of cash. And the only way I'd reccommend PS Elements would be that if someone didn't have a graphic pad I tell them to get it and that it is one of the entry programs tha will come with, PSP 8 is a much more complete editing program than PSE. But that is just my opinon and preference.

I think Jet is right to help others learn to use available Open source and freeware programs for many reasons, as well as the fact it won't get them bogged down with expensive programs and give up before they even get started. These program let everyone get a start in a very enjoyable and interesting art form!
Edie
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Last edited by Elvira : 06-15-2004 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:15 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

I agree with Red. Go get a Wacom table; worth every penny and then some, in addition to some decent bundeld software. Then go get the free software Jet recommends once you get going. You are not an idiot (whoever you are) so you can figure out how to use it with time and patience. If you have a hankering to spend money, don't buy the expensive stuff---and if you do, get it on an auction site.
Wish I had known about Gimp for example, years ago. Taught myself PS which saved me thousands of dollars and am convinced I could have done it with free software too. Trial and error and only time involved.
Captan, no one wants to put you out of work. There will always be people who are made of money and can spend a ton of it because they don't want to take time to learn on their own. You'll never be out of work so don't worry. For others who cringe at the thought of dropping $700 on a program, read Jet's tips and thank the "angels" he mentions for making alternatives available.
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:34 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

Finally someone with decent arguments, kudos for standing up for your opinions, unlike some people on this forum. Maybe this forum is finally starting to wake up from it's slumber?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
Captan, I don't understand your vitrol toward Open source and Freeware, they keep the big boys on there toes, and add greatly to the knowlege stream

Do I have to requote myself? I did say that I like Open Source - in fact I support it in many cases - I'm just a tad more skeptical about it in the case of pixel editing software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
...but I'm not paying a 1000$Can or more just for a couple of tools I don't use often.

And while you use it not so often - I use it more than 300 days a year (for real!) and don't mind at all to pay $149 for Elements 2. So what is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
For the beginner PS would be the last program I'd recommend, PSP is much more intutive and has tons of free resources on line that are very accessable for the beginner Actually I'd be even more inclined to start a beginner of with any number of Freeware that are out ther to get them started without a huge outlay of scarce cash.. And particularly for the painters, I find PS, and PSP are both not easy to paint with, for those who are use to using natural media.

Experience with "Natural media" is starting to feel a bit overrated to me. Personally I don't use Painter at all since I don't care about this "natural media" that Painter folks allways talk about. And still, my artistic background comes from oils and aquarelle. I'm sure there are plenty of others that feel the same as I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
When Corel made Painter more like PS in its work flow I made me rather angry because until they returned the Costom pallet in the patch it was very awkward to use and the way they now customize brushes is still a thorn in my side as I can no longer customize on the fly like in earlier versions.

That's an issue with Corel, isn't it? If they want to mimic Adobe for reasons neither you or I seem to understand that's their problem. Or rather - it's a problem for the people that like "natural media"... So it's your problem! Do something about it? But don't ask me how - I won't tell - even if I knew how, it's your problem after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
I haven't tried Gimp but I know many who have used it for years and love the program!

I have tried it (heck I even had to debug the damn source code to compile it), didn't like it and I too know people who have used it for years and love it! So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
just because it was the first out of the gate way back when doesn't mean it is the only player that can do the job,

Did you read my post? I said this allready, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
and the PSP community is a lot more fun as a group they know how to laugh at themselves.

I don't think the software determines the behaviour of people though - I may be blunt and to the point, maybe even rude and coldhearted but don't judge all Photoshop users after me, but then again, you don't know me at all do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
And yes I have PS 7 which someone who found the program too difficult to use for what they wanted it for, gave me, and I do use it on occassion but I would never have gone out and bought it I don't have that kind of cash.

Neither would I - really, did you read my post? Only pros can afford the latest edition of Photoshop, why should you or I who don't have the money even consider buying it? I don't understand the problem here. Why are we arguing about this issue?

oh and btw... Really, someone gave it to you, huh? How many other software do you own that you didn't have to pay for? Real sly way to make all your arguments about the prices of software seem more valid, huh? But I'm gona let that one slide for now since at least you gave this discussion a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
And the only way I'd reccommend PS Elements would be that if someone didn't have a graphic pad I tell them to get it and that it is one of the entry programs tha will come with, PSP 8 is a much more complete editing program than PSE. But that is just my opinon and preference.

Now, this is where I don't agree, most people belive that Elements 2 is a "Lite" version of Photoshop 7 - something for the kids to play with - and in some respect it is not as good as it's older brother (why wouldn't it be?), but it's still VERY capable. I too was upset when I bought it and screamed RIPOFF! - on this forum actually - Jet, who's interested in history, might be able to find that thread for you - but once I started using it I found out that the features I thought it was lacking was just different, you just have to learn how to use the software to get the full potential out of it Like you said before you hardly ever use it, so you propably just havn't yet discovered what is so great about it. Even if PSP is better as you claim, I'm not arguing with you there - it's still a commersial product and you have to pay for it.

The only feature CS has over Elements 2 is the scripting capabilities, which most users wouldn't dream of using anyway (since it involves coding). How many times do I have to repeat this argument before people understand? Elements is THAT good. It's almost CS minus the scripting and some other stuff which is neat but not so important. You just havn't worked with it enough to realize this.

It DOES take time to learn a new software, it DOES takes time to get used to it - if you thought otherwise, you are a monkey. Learn the software, before you make assumptions. But it does help to pick a software which has many "teachers". Photoshop has many teachers, PSP has many teachers, I'm not denying that fact, Gimp has so few, so few...

I'm not saying PSP is worse, heck, I've never even used it (their spec's sheets was enough to discourage me from buying it), if you think it's for you, go for it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvira
I think Jet is right to help others learn to use available Open source and freeware programs for many reasons, as well as the fact it won't get them bogged down with expensive programs and give up before they even get started. These program let everyone get a start in a very enjoyable and interest art forum!
Edie

I agree, but you see the term "expensive" is a relative term, Elements is not expensive in my eyes, it's cheap, get it? And when you get the tablet for free when you buy it (or was it the other way around?) - it's proapbly the best deal out there today (and I see some people agree). Jet is absolutely right about promoting Open Source software as an alternative, it's the packaging I'm not approving on - I think he is making newbies confused rather than enlightened and as a mod on another quite a bit smaller art board (where I'm mr nice guy btw), I can't idly sit by and watch. Even if it's just by making a lot of noise over nothing with a bunch of bull**** arguments (the part about suporting the industry I mean, the part about Photoshop beeing cheap - that's so damn solid) [/hint]
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:54 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

You aparently missed the line where I said I took courses to learn how to use PhotoShop, but that's ok. They also taught me that I didn't need it.

I have bought and paid for all the versions of Painter,6 thru 8 and PSP 5 thru 8 and Expression 3 which wasn't free when I got it, that I own and are my primary programs, and for my cousin Photoshop was over kill at best so why shouldn't she have pasted it on to me?

It was more the tone of your rant to Jet that got under my skin but that is ok, forums arent always the easiest place to express one self without misunderstanding LOL

And I will I have to admit a bone in my craw about overpriced American software so I probably should keep my opinons to myself. LOL
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Old 06-15-2004, 07:14 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

I missed it intentionally - I admit that. The tone was intentional as well however, and I apologice for those involved, Jet especially.

At least we've come to some sort of understanding. Hopefully we can end it here.
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:02 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Liera

...and this is one of my happiest days in my life for reasons i won't tell.
...So almost nothing can spoil that feeling ....

Well, congrats on your mysteriously happy day!


I agree with Red, if you're just starting out, the tablet bundled with photoshop and painter classic is a heck of a deal!

On GIMP vs. Photoshop... I've tried both, and like both a lot. However, Photoshop does get my vote as fav.
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:09 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

OMG...April agreed with me!!!...I need a drink
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:39 PM
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

Hi guys,
just arriving from bowling, we won !! everybody had their 300 game but me , still ..
Thanks for your opinions,Elvira, RW, April and Sam.

It's ok sam i don't get offended that easily and certainly not over a program , or a team that won the cup ( )
As there ¡s nothing there for any of us...

i don't want to spend too many pages on this as this is supposed to be just a tips and tutes thread and members are hoping this to stay brief and to the point.
In case this thread would make it to be rated as 5 stars (right now it's 4 stars), then it gets to be a sticky, after that our moderators check the thread for congruency, and probably will cut off the part where there's no real tips or tutorials links...i am telling this because it just has happened to another thread and a member was asking why his reply was taken off the tread.... but that's up to them and not until it gets its 5th star...

Sam, you seem to agree with me at one point but then,again, it might be my actual euphoric state:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captan
The only feature CS has over Elements 2 is the scripting capabilities, which most users wouldn't dream of using anyway (since it involves coding). How many times do I have to repeat this argument before people understand? Elements is THAT good. It's almost CS minus the scripting and some other stuff which is neat but not so important. You just havn't worked with it enough to realize this.

By this remark , how much more should CS cost than Elements taking into account
Quote:
It's almost CS minus the scripting and some other stuff which is neat but not so important.

Would you agree now that PS7 or CS are highly overpriced ?

Have a good one Sam, you're a good guy--maybe a little grumpy today, but still we like you !! Peace?
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Old 06-15-2004, 09:12 PM
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lemonbird lemonbird is offline
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Re: * Tips & Tutes x Digital Art *

Red..

I voted for 5 stars! Can never get enough tutorial sites!

So, here are some Bryce tutorial sites:
http://www.petersharpe.com/Tutorials.htm

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dtxart/...s/DpTxfrme.htm

http://calyxa.best.vwh.net/pearl/tutor.html

My fav site seems to no longer be up and running. I've been trying to get there for a few days with no luck. But just in case she comes back:
www.brycetech.com/
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