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  #46   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-19-2017, 04:54 AM
luvinlife68 luvinlife68 is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Thanks for the advice Fedetony. I did not understand how to use fixative to get the tooth back, and your advice on getting my darks darker is most helpful. Have been working on my "finished" drawing yet again!
Sue
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:48 AM
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fedetony fedetony is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Luvin,
Just add layers of your graphite and when you see there is no change, spray over it some fixative, wait until fully dries, and continue drawing over it. You will notice there is again a texture and is not slippery ...

Some long explanation of how you can picture this working:
Imagine you have a very big magnifying glass and you can see up close the structure of the paper. When you see it far away it appears to be perfectly flat, but as you get closer and closer a texture starts to appear such that is like peaks or mountains. This is what we call "tooth".
Graphite in the other hand is a combination of clay and graphite. When you pass the pencil over the surface, some of it goes into the valleys, and some of it start to accumulate in those peaks, Covering the surface. If you press very hard your pencil over the paper, you will make this structure to become flat, and loose the tooth. The tooth on the paper is the system that scratches graphite to be loose to the surface of the paper. As you accumulate graphite layers in the paper then the amount that is scratched out of the pencil is less and less. The graphite is slippery, and is like a lubricant, the pencil just slips through it. Notice that scratching the pencil leaves the graphite accumulation next to the peaks.
When you add fixative to the already accumulated graphite, you are adding a layer of a substance that is not slippery, and then further more graphite will be scratched out of the pencil when you pass over it. The most amount of graphite, the darker it appears to the eye.
When you pass several times the pencil, the graphite accumulates and is pressed into the valleys. When you use water or alcohol and graphite powder the fluid will make the graphite settle in the valleys filling them, and over the peaks also, since the water leaves the surface, when it dries the graphite is set by deposition, so its even (not pressed) and will not shine. Since it goes to the deep part of the valleys, it can't be erased.
The eraser would attach to it the graphite it gets to touch by the surface.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:59 PM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Fedetony what fixative would you say is best for this technique with graphite? I bought a pastel fixative for my coloured pencil drawings and wonder if this would work in the same way you describe? It doesn't say that it is a workable fixative on the spray can and I'm not absolutely sure it is the correct product for coloured pencils either but it seems to have worked so far!
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:02 PM
luvinlife68 luvinlife68 is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Quote:
Originally Posted by fedetony
Luvin,
Just add layers of your graphite and when you see there is no change, spray over it some fixative, wait until fully dries, and continue drawing over it. You will notice there is again a texture and is not slippery ...

Some long explanation of how you can picture this working:
Imagine you have a very big magnifying glass and you can see up close the structure of the paper. When you see it far away it appears to be perfectly flat, but as you get closer and closer a texture starts to appear such that is like peaks or mountains. This is what we call "tooth".
Graphite in the other hand is a combination of clay and graphite. When you pass the pencil over the surface, some of it goes into the valleys, and some of it start to accumulate in those peaks, Covering the surface. If you press very hard your pencil over the paper, you will make this structure to become flat, and loose the tooth. The tooth on the paper is the system that scratches graphite to be loose to the surface of the paper. As you accumulate graphite layers in the paper then the amount that is scratched out of the pencil is less and less. The graphite is slippery, and is like a lubricant, the pencil just slips through it. Notice that scratching the pencil leaves the graphite accumulation next to the peaks.
When you add fixative to the already accumulated graphite, you are adding a layer of a substance that is not slippery, and then further more graphite will be scratched out of the pencil when you pass over it. The most amount of graphite, the darker it appears to the eye.
When you pass several times the pencil, the graphite accumulates and is pressed into the valleys. When you use water or alcohol and graphite powder the fluid will make the graphite settle in the valleys filling them, and over the peaks also, since the water leaves the surface, when it dries the graphite is set by deposition, so its even (not pressed) and will not shine. Since it goes to the deep part of the valleys, it can't be erased.
The eraser would attach to it the graphite it gets to touch by the surface.

Thank you Fedetony for this helpful indepth explanation. Having never taken an art course, this is all new information for me. Also, I too am interested in your response to PamSay's question on which type of fixative. Will then have to see if it is available here in Australia. Many thanks.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:46 AM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Sorry for not answering before... just saw this thread..
The fixative is a universal fixative for graphite, charcoal, color pencils, chalk pastels and pastels... so yes, is for both the same. Its basically made out of shellack in an alcohol solution. Alcohol evaporates and leaves the shellack layer.
I use "Jaxel Spray Fixative for Pastels" normally, but I'm trying also W&N that found in a store.
You may want to read this article too
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:59 PM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Very intersting thread, thank you. Good to see the progress made after practise. I havent done much drawing lately and want to start again. This inspires me to try.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:18 PM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

That's the spirit!
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:07 AM
GregPerkins GregPerkins is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

In the beginning I thought it was all about speed. The chair is my first drawing. At this stage I thought your average pencil set you would give school kids was sufficient. It was this forum that encouraged me to explore the dark side using the full tonal range. I found a good art shop and bought more better wuality pencils. The Landrover is my latest completed work

AT one stage I started experimenting using a single pencil, Derwent Onyx, to really try and push the darks, the Tourag Man is an example of this.

I now use a combination of 9B-9H although I still tend to prefer the Onyx for the darks and the h range for the lights
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Fedetony thanks for the information on fixatives

Greg, how much time would say has passed between your first drawing and the drawing of the land rover?
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:54 AM
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kennychaffin kennychaffin is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregPerkins
In the beginning I thought it was all about speed. The chair is my first drawing. At this stage I thought your average pencil set you would give school kids was sufficient. It was this forum that encouraged me to explore the dark side using the full tonal range. I found a good art shop and bought more better wuality pencils. The Landrover is my latest completed work

AT one stage I started experimenting using a single pencil, Derwent Onyx, to really try and push the darks, the Tourag Man is an example of this.

I now use a combination of 9B-9H although I still tend to prefer the Onyx for the darks and the h range for the lights

Nice work/examples Greg!
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:06 AM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Hey Kenny!

One other thing I should point out to new drawers in all the examples shown here is the importance of darks. You'll notice that in all the better drawings the darks are very prominent and the range of values is balanced. This takes some time to get right, but it makes a huge difference in the final drawing.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:53 AM
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Ladysue Ladysue is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Well, it is hard for me to post something here since I am at work, but a few comments and questions resonated with me. So here is my grain of salt.

I first started painting in 1988 or 89. Never thought I could draw. It is not he same action. But I still tried a little. Got my first sketchbook around 1999. Took some painting classes, and some color classes.

Then, in 2008, I went for some real formal training in art. 2 classes per semester because I had a full time job and a baby. There I had to take drawing classes cause they fit the schedule. I had a great teacher and I learned things that surprised me and prooved to be true.

1. Everyone can draw even with no hands. Drawing is mostly looking and observing. There are also a few reference rules you can learn. (perspective, value, proportion, etc)

2.Waiting for inspiration is unreliable. Show up just like you would show up to work. You will find your way By pushing thru.

Then I had to stop classes and painting because I had a second child and no more time to set up and clean up. That is when I took up drawing. What improved my skill was :

1. Drawing everyday, even if it's crap. quick sketches on the corner of a document in a meeting, I also draw a whole lot on the bus. Not just sketches, «Underpaintings», textures, composition pre-work. Anything.

2. I started making what I call soups. You cook a soup by throwing stuff together without looking to impress. I do the same while drawing. I just let the pencils do the work. See where it takes me. Hanging around the abstract forum was the spark for that.

2. Purchase good quality pencils and erasers.

3. You can «paint with your pencils» It all depends how you treat the image, no lines just shades = paint style.

Then I saw great stuff on the colored pencil forum and someone gave me a box of Prismas, I really started drawing and found the fun I had in painting.

1. I gave myself deadlines so I would finally bring my works to completion, rather then letting them on the side (afraid of messing it up, afraid or convinced it's not good enough, etc.) So I drew every member of my family a birthday card for a year.

2. I started doing the monthly challenge on the florals and bottnical forum. Rarely skipped since November of last year.

3. I give myself permission not to draw on family vacation. I treat this like a vacation as well.

Finally, I've started actively noticing when I have trouble in my creations. I know my inner critic (whom I have named rose because she's an old nagging witch and that name makes her less so). I know now that she is particularily active when I want to start something new, so I treat her like a nemesis and fight it with all I've got. I try, research and try again and ignore her. I know she will also enoy me with (what if you mess it up) comments at a certain stage, but I put her to sleep by just continuing on with boring shading. And she will gasp at our success after hours and hours.

Now that I know this, I know the road to success and what hills and pitfalls await. I am not hampered by it so much anymore.

I now challenge myself whenever something feels comfortable. What is the fun in repeating something

That's all. Hope this is of use.
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Last edited by Ladysue : 06-07-2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:12 AM
GregPerkins GregPerkins is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Quote:
Originally Posted by PamSav
Fedetony thanks for the information on fixatives

Greg, how much time would say has passed between your first drawing and the drawing of the land rover?

Hi Pam, seven years. I don't draw all the time, sometimes I takes a break for a few months. I haven't had any training, just this forum, although I went to a Technical High School for my last 5 years of school and a major subject was technical drawing/draughting, so perspective is not a challenge to me. However that was 40 years ago, had to scratch out all the old cobwebs
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:06 AM
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asifshaikh asifshaikh is offline
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

All of these lovely drawings are making me contemplate to give drawings a try. Have been painting in acrylics for a long time now. I must each of your works look stunning, the progression that you guys have made is amazing.
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:07 AM
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Re: Encouraging Beginning Drawers

Another quick question, when it comes to drawing supplies where do you buy them online?
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