Home › Forums › The Learning Center › Color Theory and Mixing › Pyrrole Rubine PR264 disappointment
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July 9, 2014 at 6:57 pm #992046
I love real Alizarin Crimson but want something more fade-resistant. I’ve read lotsa good things about PR264 (often known as Pyrrole Rubine) as a substitute. Some artists say this is the best substitute. So I tried Talens Cobra (water-soluble oil) ‘Madder Lake’ which is PR264. When compared to my Winsor & Newton Artists’ Alizarin Crimson, it’s not even close:
-it’s nowhere near as dark and rich in masstone
-duller in undertone
-greyer in tints
-slightly bluer in hue – which I could live withIt lacks Alizarin Crimson’s saturated deep ruby red color. It’s like a dull version of Quinacridone Rose. In fairness, this paint is called Madder Lake, and is not called Permanent Alizarin Crimson or Alizarin Crimson Hue, so it likely was not intended as a direct substitute.
But still, it’s color is a disappointment. Maybe my expectations were too high after being used to Winsor & Newton’s Alizarin Crimson. Maybe other brands use PR264 pigment that is more saturated and transparent. I’m sure it will give me lots of use for mixing skin colors (with yellows & white), and also as a general-purpose mid-chroma ‘red’ for mixes. I’ll see what kind of blacks it makes with Phthalo Green.As an aside, I also tried Talens Cobra Study (student-grade) ‘Pyrrole Red’ PR254 and I’m pleasantly surprised by it. It’s not as thick as the regular Cobra (which is actually what I want in a bright red). Its color in masstone and undertone is a bright, high-chroma, middle red – like artist grade. Tints with white make a bright middle pink – cleaner than real cadmium reds, and without the strident shift to purple like Quinacridone reds.
July 9, 2014 at 9:20 pm #1207976AnonymousSorry it doesn’t match very close, I think the closest ones I have found yet are Gamblin’s Alizarin Permanent and Utrecht’s Perm Alizarin, The one in the middle is Artisan Perm Alizarin. with your WN AC next to them:
July 10, 2014 at 6:40 am #1207981Patrick, if you’re doing oil, try Rembrandt’s Madder Lake or Madder Lake Deep. I have the WN AC and to me this seems a little darker. I would also suggest Mussini’s Translucent Magenta, or Williamsburg Permanent Crimson – which is a touch lighter than the others, however this shines far past any crimson I’ve used.
July 10, 2014 at 9:09 am #1207979Along with Cypress, take a look at Rembrandt’s Permanent Madder Deep. It comes very close to Alizarin. In fact, it’s a bit more rich and chromatic in my opinion, and retains its chroma when tinted with white. It has been my basic red on my flesh palette for years.
July 10, 2014 at 10:49 am #1207982Budigart is right – It is Rembrandt’s Permanent Madder Deep that I was trying to speak of, not Madder Lake. I use that color along with Prussian Blue and Cad Yellow for my extremely limited palettes and it has faired far past Alizarin Crimson in my opinion.
July 11, 2014 at 5:58 pm #1207968Thanks everyone.
Going by the swatches below from Dick Blick, and Sid’s, only the Gamblin Permanent Alizarin Crimson has the very dark, rich masstone I like/need. But I only use water soluble oils now.July 11, 2014 at 10:03 pm #1207977AnonymousPatrick here is a water mixable by Weber that is somewhat similar to the Gamblin mix:
PR209, PR122, PR101, PR179July 12, 2014 at 2:19 am #1207969Thanks Mr. Sid . By that swatch, it doesn’t look as dark as Winsor & Newton PR83 or the Gamblin mix. Sorry for harping on that issue, but as you might’ve noticed, I am very picky about masstone darkness :clear:. I often use dark, transparent colors to mix blacks or to use as black when applied thick.
But still I would love to try those Weber water soluble oils. Here in this part of Canada, the only ones to be found are Artisan, MAX, and Cobra & Cobra Study.
July 12, 2014 at 2:31 am #1207970I just read in Hilary Page’s ‘Guide To Watercolor Paints’ that Rose Madder denotes a color weaker and less deep & intense than Alizarin Crimson. So in hindsight I should not be surprised that the Rembrandt/Talens PR264 paints don’t match real Alizarin.
But I read that some brands of PR264 do match Alizarin in darkness & depth of color. So you know the adage of ‘choose colors by pigment number, not by color name’ ? Throw that out the window, and choose by color name rather than pigment number! :thumbsup:
July 12, 2014 at 5:01 am #1207983It’s going to be extremely difficult to match alizarin crimson with a single pigment especially if you only use water miscible colors. It would more than likely take 2 pigments such as a touch of Prussian Blue and Magenta. They also have oil sticks out there via W&N that you could try that mix with both water and regular oil. It has an oil/wax base that is even cleaner than water miscible oils. Here is R&F Burnt Scarlet which can match the darks of Alizarin, but with a stronger undertone that you can blend with your fingers.
July 12, 2014 at 10:00 am #1207978AnonymousWeber should add a little ultramarine blue like Gamblin does, that would make it a little darker in masstone. Seems like all the single pigments are cleaner and lighter magentas than real AC.
July 13, 2014 at 6:18 am #1207971Jeremy, is that PR206? That is indeed lusciously-dark and rich in masstone. I’ve been wanting to try one of these organic earths for a long time.
Sid – although I generally prefer single pigments, I wouldn’t mind a mix rather than a single pigment if that’s what’s needed to get the color I want…as might be the case here.
Having tried out my Talens PR264 in color mixing swatches, and in an actual painting, I’m coming to like it despite the shortcomings I mentioned earlier. Some new observations:
► mixed with Phthalo Green (Blue Shade) it makes a black indistinguishably dark as Mars black! (I couldn’t see a difference even under bright light)
► in undertone/diluted without white this mix is very close to neutral grey if you get the proportions right
► mixed with Lemon Yellow (PY3) and white, it makes realistic caucasian skin tones
July 13, 2014 at 11:48 am #1207984Patrick, indeed that is PR206. However it is a very expensive PR206 oil stick. The 38ml version is about $18 and the 188ml is almost $64. The brand is R&F. I love the oil sticks because they are completely dry to the touch in 24 hours and you can mix any type of oil medium. They also coincide with the h20 oils.
July 14, 2014 at 8:48 am #1207985Patrick, I saw this color today and it stood out to me. It’s the Pyrrole Rubine mixed with Ultramarine Blue which creates a very close Alizarin Crimson hue which also makes it more vibrant due to the chroma of UMB.
July 15, 2014 at 7:15 am #1207972Jeremy,
When I use up my current transparent Burnt Sienna (Artisan oils) I might replace it with some brand of PR206…your oil bar sample if it looks incredible.The Pyrrole Rubine + Ultramarine Blue looks very nice…awesome dark masstone :thumbsup:. I guess it’s Rembrandt Oils. I only use water-soluble oils now and unfortunately Cobra doesn’t have that color. It’s a lot more purplish than Alizarin Crimson but would be a neat, more natural-looking, much more reddish alternative to Dioxazine Purple…a color I use a lot of. I’ll see if I can find something similar in any other water-soluble oils.
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