Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting Painting on Wood Panels – Research and Questions

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  • #989660

    Hi everyone,

    I have been slowly trawling through the forums of late gathering research and intelligence on painting on wood panel rather than canvas.

    :crossfingers: The bottom of this post is a list of all the WC posts that i can find that have mention of preparing Panels for painting on. :crossfingers: – Just so you know that i HAVE in fact read them all before posting.

    I want to produce painting as would have been done in the later middle ages and early Renaissance. Most especially Italian. (The reason for this is simply that i take part in an historical reenactment group that performs late 1400’s in Italy.)

    From my understanding this is what i have gathered from your posts and advice here on WC:

    Ground:
    Masonite
    MDF
    Plywood
    Hardboard
    Marine ply
    –> these are all terms i have heard used as a ‘ground’ some used interchangeably

    Size:
    Much over a small portrait size say 30cm by 40cm would need to be ‘cradled’ in a mitered frame to stop warping. The thinner the panel the smaller the size you would need to cradle. Ie Freesail suggested anything over 23x30cm would be cradled

    Thickness:
    6mm-9mm ???

    Cradle:
    Use mitered corners for strength and glue
    Nails through the panel look tacky and way work loose
    Don’t make till you have ‘primed’ all the surfaces to stop warping

    Board preparation
    Gesso 3 -4 layers – sand inbetween if you want smooth
    roll gesso one way the first coat, then roll the other way the second.
    IF you want more texture (i don’t) you can add some in.
    Make sure you coat all sides with something to stop air and moisture getting in is very important
    Tone canvas with oil paint/turps mix to help stop paint sinking (and i just like toned canvas!!)

    Other
    soft brushes might work better on the smoother surface

    :confused: QUESTIONS:
    I have some 30cm by 40cm panels of high grade MDF. (only $1.50 each cut to size!!!)
    they are 9mm thick. (Could have got away with 6mm) but the panels are small.
    I was NOT intending on putting a cradle on them. They do look very sturdy – However the are a few cm bigger that the 23x30cm that Freesail suggested not to go over. However compared to the plywood of that size they look much more sturdy – Yes i will take advice on that though. perhaps i will try it and see how i go…

    Next time: – What do you buy at BUNNINGS… lol (only aussies will understand the joys of Bunnings) – So Aussie painters.. what is your “Bunnings available wood preferences” I spent an hour with a very frazzled and amused salesman today. Asking questions. I had to hide my husband in the lawnmower sections so i could play “distressed female…” it worked he cut the panels for free..lol
    Next time i want to try a hardwood of sorts…
    –>The terminology seems to be different between Aussie and America – so i wanted some “Aussie” advice if i can. <-- I looked at ply and marine ply and apart from the fact that they will look wrong in the reenactment side of things, they looked very flimsy. I didn't get to see any hardboard. I know that MDF will be a mess if they get wet and therefore need proper preparation. I was intending on PVA sizing the entire board. Waiting for it to dry then adding several layers of gesso to the board. Perhaps one all over then 3 more just to the painted side. (Yes i know to paint ALL the 6 sides not just the two) I was planning on sanding in between if i felt that i needed to. Does anyone have any further recommendations?? - Many thanks :clap: :clap: :clap: RESEARCH THREADS ON PAINTING ON PANEL :clap: :clap: :clap: [B]Type of boards:-[/B] anyone got any good ones to add here? [B]Preparation, Sizing/gesso:-[/B] [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1094132&highlight=masonite]What is sizing[/URL] [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105852]Transparent Primer for wood/board surface?[/URL] [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1103162]Blending on masonite, I must be doing something wrong[/URL] - Great thread about problems with absorbent grounds. Then looking at how to prime the boards well. [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1098512]Painting on Wood[/URL] - some suggestions about preparation but mostly about cradles :-) [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564851&highlight=wood+panel]Best way to seal MDF panels[/URL] - good post. Cradles:- [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1098512]Painting on Wood[/URL] Interesting discussion/differences of opinion about cradles and how to make them. [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1057172&highlight=wood+panel]Building a custom hardboard panel[/URL] - good post , has pictures. Other:- [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366601&highlight=wood+panel]Favorite supports for egg tempera[/URL] - interesting [URL=https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283640&highlight=wood+panel]Creating a Carry Case for Wet Panels[/URL] - Nice pictures. God bless Duct tape.. :grouphug: for the following people that have really helped with my research!! WFMartin - Legend!! Ron Francis Freesail Alan P. in OC Many thanks, Sarah

    #1161977
    Ron Francis
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        Sarah,

        9mm MDF for the size you want to use should be fine uncradled. Just make sure you seal all 6 sides well, especially the edges.
        It is fragile though, and it is very easy to damage the edges and corners.

        I used to paint murals on MDF and it is nice to work on, even, smooth, flat etc., but I wouldn’t recommend it for something that you want to last a long time. It is full of glue and I think has formaldehyde in it. At any rate, I would seal it first with Golden GAC 100, or (Australian) Matisse clear sealer before gessoing.

        What I would recommend is masonite. ‘Masonite’, the company, went out of business a little while ago, but the masonite in Australia is different than what you would buy in the US from that company. It is purely compressed eucalyptus (I think) without any glue or other chemicals. Similar to the way paper is made. From what I have read, there isn’t much better to paint on archivally.
        There are tannins in the timber though, so I would still seal with the Golden or Mattise sealer to stop SID (support induced discolouration.)
        I would cradle any size, mainly because it makes it easy to handle, and you can hang it on a wall without a frame.
        Use a good wood glue if you end up going that way in the future. Titebond II is about the best you can get.

        But you should be fine with the MDF.

        Ron
        www.RonaldFrancis.com

        #1161996

        Thanks again ron, especially for the details on the australian brands.

        I will indeed seal the boards well.

        Do you by any chance know if bunnings stock the correct masonite. Or will i have to go to a more specialist place.

        Many thanks again
        Sarah

        #1161985
        Freesail
        Default

            MDF is mostly saw dust with glue and binders holding it together. Get it wet and we can watch it begin to fall apart together ………

            Use mitered corners for strength and glue
            Nails through the panel look tacky and way work loose

            Lap joints are far stronger then a mitered joint ( mitered joints are neater and I think stronger then a butt joint ) and I can’t think of any product you could buy that would have nails holding a panel to a frame supporting it. Modern glue is very strong.

            Always paint or seal all 6 sides of the panel with something ……

            Solvent = Leaner Oil = Fatter Drawing is the basis of art. A bad painter cannot draw. But one who draws well can always paint. (Arshile Gorky)
            #1161997

            Laughs about the whole reenactor thing… I dont grow the cotton to spin the thread to make the cloth to cut the garment either…

            Nods about terminology.

            Freesail. Next i will try the masonite. I will seal the mdf well and avoid water at all costs.

            I guess i actually need to research what sort cradle would have been used in the time.

            Thanks again. Will pull out my videos from europe museums again…

            #1161992
            fxoflight
            Default

                Hey Ron,

                Have you ever seen Support Induced Discolouration in paintings on masonite hardboard? I use masonite, the untempered kind and have prepped with 3 layers of acrylic gesso, thinned a bit with water. I haven’t seen any discolouration in one piece I did a year ago, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. I just wonder if SID is common with masonite? I haven’t heard that it was before. Anyone here have paintings done on masonite from many years ago? Is there any noticeable discolouration?

                Thanks,
                -fxoflight

                #1161982
                Trond
                Default

                    For a real Renaissance feel (if interested):
                    1. Not terribly important perhaps, but you could use wooden boards, not boards made from sawdust. Cradleboards are sold commercially, at least in Canada.
                    2. Old-fashioned gesso is made with hide glue. I’m pretty sure you can find pre-mixed gesso powder. If you also size the board with hide glue you will get a nice bonding of the size (which penetrates the wood) and the gesso (which sits on top)
                    3. Why are you talking about canvas:confused: Sure, some Renaissance painters painted on gessoed canvas, but I thought you were prepping boards. Anyway, I don’t think they sealed the gesso board or canvas with a turpsy “wash” (it won’t do), but with a oily mix of paint (this may be one reason why they frequently find oil in the gesso, it soaks in). In fact, turpsy washes are probably a relatively recent invention. Sometimes they may have sealed it with glue, but I think they usually just made a fluid mix of linseed or walnut oil and earth pigment, and rubbed it in with a brush or a rag.

                    Renaissance painters sometimes used a lot of oil: at least one Leonardo painting has wrinkled, a sign of over-use of oil, and the same is true for a Titian painting (but the Titian still looks good, so he may have not cared). Most of their paintings have not wrinkled, but the fact that some of them did shows that they probably were balancing right at the edge of using too much oil.

                    #1161978
                    Ron Francis
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                        Do you by any chance know if bunnings stock the correct masonite. Or will i have to go to a more specialist place.

                        Bunnings or Mitre 10 should stock masonite. The only problem that you may run into is that these stores are more like supermarkets these days, and the sales people often don’t know all that much about their products.
                        It is pretty obvious though, smooth on one side and a pressed pattern on the other, and dark brown.
                        But if you are really trying to re-create an old technique, you probably should be using solid timber panels I think. :)

                        Have you ever seen Support Induced Discolouration in paintings on masonite hardboard? I use masonite, the untempered kind and have prepped with 3 layers of acrylic gesso, thinned a bit with water. I haven’t seen any discolouration in one piece I did a year ago, but that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. I just wonder if SID is common with masonite? I haven’t heard that it was before. Anyone here have paintings done on masonite from many years ago? Is there any noticeable discolouration?

                        No, I haven’t seen any SID, but I haven’t been exposed to much painting done on masonite and, except for the little I have done, wouldn’t know how they were prepared. The conservators at AMIEN should have more experience in that area.
                        For me it is just a safety issue. :crossfingers:

                        Ron
                        www.RonaldFrancis.com

                        #1162000
                        Constance
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                            This is so helpful! Thanks Sarah, for compiling them. I too have done a few oil sketches/paintings on some of the supports mentioned and I didn’t do what needs to be done prior to painting. So, really felt that i’ve wasted a lot of oil paints, time, money and effort, foolishly. with your post here, i feel a lot will benefit from reading them.

                            I have asked about getting a clear Gesso for wood/board and thanks for the recommendations from this forum, including Ron Francis’s recommendation of GAC100. Thanks Ron! I went to the art store yesterday but they do not have any of the brands recommended. After reading this post this morning, i’ve decided to really look out for GAC. Hopefully i’ll be able to find this from another art store in town. Any Malaysians (KL/Selangor) reading this?

                            Instagram: unsuspectingstrangers

                            #1161979
                            Ron Francis
                            Default

                                Constance,
                                I’m not trying to push Golden, although I do like their products.
                                I imagine there would be similar products around, but I’m just not familiar with them.
                                This store finder may help you.
                                http://www.goldenpaints.com/storelist/index.php

                                Ron
                                www.RonaldFrancis.com

                                #1161990
                                Newb
                                Default

                                    From what I have read, I think oak was the most commonly used board by the old masters. I have yet to learn what species though. There are over 200 species of oak. I only know 5.

                                    I have 2 birch plywood boards prepped with gesso and am in the process of experimenting with some small very clear light grained maple pieces. I have some oak kicking around but not sure I want to cut up and glue up solid boards. I probably will give it a go anyway in time. It’s a lot of work though. They do make oak veneered plywood but it isn’t cheap. I know a lot of people use it but the thought of using MDF just sends shivers up my spine.

                                    [FONT=Verdana]"Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art". -- Leonardo DA Vinci

                                    #1162003
                                    Carcharhinus
                                    Default

                                        Not strictly Renaissance but I do know that the dutch masters used animal glue mixed with chalk (I assume that they crushed it up in to dust before mixing it to make a grey paste). Chalk was grey at the time, hence the grey toned surfaces you often see that masterpieces have been painted on. I assume that the Renaissance painters used something similar.

                                        I’m tempted to use this method next time I prepare a board if I can find a suitable glue because I go through gesso like a machine.

                                        #1161983
                                        Trond
                                        Default

                                            Not strictly Renaissance but I do know that the dutch masters used animal glue mixed with chalk (I assume that they crushed it up in to dust before mixing it to make a grey paste). Chalk was grey at the time, hence the grey toned surfaces you often see that masterpieces have been painted on. I assume that the Renaissance painters used something similar.

                                            I’m tempted to use this method next time I prepare a board if I can find a suitable glue because I go through gesso like a machine.

                                            What you describe is traditional gesso (sometimes white, other times off-white). What you are currently using is probably acrylic gesso.

                                            #1162004
                                            Carcharhinus
                                            Default

                                                What you describe is traditional gesso (sometimes white, other times off-white). What you are currently using is probably acrylic gesso.

                                                My fault, I just assumed that gesso was a blanket term for general pastes/paints/whatever that are used as a base.

                                                #1162005
                                                Carcharhinus
                                                Default

                                                    Sorry to double post, but do any of the experts on here know if I could mix rabbit size with crushed up cheap chalk to make a gesso and would it be good quality?

                                                    If I happen to paint something worth keeping on it I’d like it to hold up. Or should I just stick with regular gesso?

                                                    Edit: Or can I mix marble dust with it? Which would be better? Do I need extra ingredients?

                                                    I’d make a new thread but I thought I’d better not clog up the forum, and this one is kind of related. I’m painting on panel btw.

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