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  #31   Report Bad Post  
Old 10-20-2005, 02:16 AM
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Kate Mc Kate Mc is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart

Let me get serious for a minute. There was a draught that year here in Florida, and some animals died. This cow or bull was dehydrated and thereforeI presumed sad. I got her or him (not sure because he/she didn’t get up and I’m a city guy) some water which he/she seemed too weak to drink. There was risk involved because I had to go onto private property to do so. When the owners yelled to get out of there I had to leave. They were not happy that I took photos and I could have gotten shot at. As far as the lonely part, I have no proof of that other than a spirit feeling.



I'm laughing out loud at this. For the following reasons:

-when a cow or steer (btw, if it's raised for beef it's not a cow) is lying down with grass coming out of its mouth like this, it's most likely chewing its cud. Ummmm....normally very content at that time.

-Just because there was a drought (probably not a draught!), you assume that the owner of the animals was not giving them water. How can you (as a self-proclaimed city kid) know if it was dehydrated or not? How did you test it? Do you know enough about cattle to know how to tell??

-Did it occur to you that the reason that it didn't drink the water was because it wasn't thirsty? Maybe because the owner provided water for it? Maybe even somewhere sheltered where you couldn't see it??

-You took a "risk" to go on private property where you could have been shot at?? LOL, where do you live?? What makes you assume that they would SHOOT you?? You're making a lot of assumptions: Cattle owners=bad people=suffering and dying animals=gonna SHOOT me!

-Perhaps the owners yelled at you because they saw a stranger giving something to their animals? Is it possible that they could actually CARE that somebody might be giving their animals something that could harm them?

-As for "lonely". Cattle are herd animals. I'm willing to bet that there were others around this one. Cattle are rarely lonely.


This is a perfect example of seeing what you want to see. I'm not saying that my suggestions are true, but IMHO they are more plausible than yours.


I applaud anyone who follows their conscience in matters like veganism/vegetarianism, but this is going a little too far for me.

Just MHO.




Kate

Last edited by Kate Mc : 10-20-2005 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 10-20-2005, 02:42 AM
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lisilk lisilk is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Sidhe

-You took a "risk" to go on private property where you could have been shot at?? LOL, where do you live?? What makes you assume that they would SHOOT you?? You're making a lot of assumptions: Cattle owners=bad people=suffering and dying animals=gonna SHOOT me!

Kate

That does bring up another paradox. Why would the rancher care so much about their animal.. (or even living property) enough to shoot you but not care enough to walk over and give the cow water. The first thing ranchers do in during a drought is make sure the animals are safe. It's their livelihood! Doesn't add it. I agree Kate, a lot of assumptions with little fact.

Li
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Old 10-20-2005, 04:28 AM
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart
Let me get serious for a minute. There was a draught that year here in Florida, and some animals died. This cow or bull was dehydrated and thereforeI presumed sad. I got her or him (not sure because he/she didn’t get up and I’m a city guy) some water which he/she seemed too weak to drink. There was risk involved because I had to go onto private property to do so. When the owners yelled to get out of there I had to leave. They were not happy that I took photos and I could have gotten shot at. As far as the lonely part, I have no proof of that other than a spirit feeling.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Sidhe
I'm laughing out loud at this. For the following reasons:

-when a cow or steer (btw, if it's raised for beef it's not a cow) is lying down with grass coming out of its mouth like this, it's most likely chewing its cud. Ummmm....normally very content at that time.

-Just because there was a drought (probably not a draught!), you assume that the owner of the animals was not giving them water. How can you (as a self-proclaimed city kid) know if it was dehydrated or not? How did you test it? Do you know enough about cattle to know how to tell??

-Did it occur to you that the reason that it didn't drink the water was because it wasn't thirsty? Maybe because the owner provided water for it? Maybe even somewhere sheltered where you couldn't see it??

-You took a "risk" to go on private property where you could have been shot at?? LOL, where do you live?? What makes you assume that they would SHOOT you?? You're making a lot of assumptions: Cattle owners=bad people=suffering and dying animals=gonna SHOOT me!

-Perhaps the owners yelled at you because they saw a stranger giving something to their animals? Is it possible that they could actually CARE that somebody might be giving their animals something that could harm them?

-As for "lonely". Cattle are herd animals. I'm willing to bet that there were others around this one. Cattle are rarely lonely.


This is a perfect example of seeing what you want to see. I'm not saying that my suggestions are true, but IMHO they are more plausible than yours.


I applaud anyone who follows their conscience in matters like veganism/vegetarianism, but this is going a little too far for me.

Just MHO.
Kate

I think this is just a misunderstanding. Because a good propagandist doesn't believe his own propaganda and Villageart clearly believes his own propaganda. Villageart is a sincere propagandist.

And while propaganda should never be judged on whether it is true or false, it should be judged on whether it is plausible or implausible. And it is clear that Villageart finds his own propaganda plausible. This is a good first step. The next step is to make it plausible to his readers. And the final step is not to believe it himself.

The final step he will find impossible because he is enculturated in the basic distinctions of good/bad and sincere/phoney. And it is very plain he is a good person so he will always be sincere or try to be sincere. So he will never be a first rate propagandist.

He does though have an instinct for enjoyment and sharing it with others.

Victor.

Last edited by Torie : 10-20-2005 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 10-20-2005, 08:48 AM
aderfla aderfla is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisilk
Hi

I I have been a vegetarian for .... gad, 35 years but my reasons are personal and frankly nobody probably gives a hoot. I have to admit though that one of my pet peeves is what I call ( and I'm not throwing carrots here ) the militant animal rights/ environmentalists because they usually don't have the ability to hear anyone elses point of view. ( That goes for the radical right & left of any group I suppose.) I . What am I trying to say? I think it's great that you love animals and live true to that, I just don't like the idea that some people ( and I am generallizing like crazy) think it makes them better or more profound than my husband who makes amazing sculptures while chewing on his hamburger. lol.

My 2 cents which is about all it's worth. I really should figure out where the spell check is.

Li

My daughter became a vegetarian at 7. She is 21 and still a vegetarian (and very healthy gal), and like you doesn't support the militant view or make an issue with others. This was a personal choice that she doesn't feel she has to defend or proselityze anymore than I have to because I choose to eat meat.

So your husband is a food artist eh LOL!
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:17 AM
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Re: Vegan Artists

I’m seeing the question: What has being a vegetarian or an animal activist have to do with art? I actually started this thread as a call to other vegan artists to discuss how being a vegetarian affects their art and their life as an artist.

However I welcome all to what turned into an interesting and entertaining discussion .


Art is an expression of our culture, and society. When we are unearthed thousands of years from now our art will be “Who we were”. I’m afraid that we will be perceived as primitive, and pretty far down on the evolutionary scale. Our art shows our relationship with our fellow creatures and our planet.


As for the cigar-smoking, meat-eating macho dudes . I get no delight in saying that it is a fact that when and if you reach my age you will not be able to the things I do. You will more than likely need oxygen and a walker or wheelchair to get around. Think of the time you will miss with your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. My advice: Put down the burger, put out the cigar, and go for a walk ……Bob
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:25 AM
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torie
I think this is just a misunderstanding. Because a good propagandist doesn't believe his own propaganda and Villageart clearly believes his own propaganda. Villageart is a sincere propagandist.

And while propaganda should never be judged on whether it is true or false, it should be judged on whether it is plausible or implausible. And it is clear that Villageart finds his own propaganda plausible. This is a good first step. The next step is to make it plausible to his readers. And the final step is not to believe it himself.

The final step he will find impossible because he is enculturated in the basic distinctions of good/bad and sincere/phoney. And it is very plain he is a good person so he will always be sincere or try to be sincere. So he will never be a first rate propagandist.

He does though have an instinct for enjoyment and sharing it with others.

Victor.

Thanx, Victor for the psychoanalysis. Where do I send the bill? ...Bob
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:32 AM
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jettboy
A buddy o' mine who's a vet's assistant told me that cats require certain key amino acids and meat-specific proteins in their diet. If a cat—house cat or any other feline—is put on a strict vegan diet they develop a condition called...hmmm, what was it again? Oh yeah, "death". Word is that dogs CAN survive on a vegan diet as long as large amounts of vegetable/legume proteins are included. I don't think they'd be very happy dogs, though.

Oh piddle, people are always saying vegans can't get the key amino acids and proteins in their diet without meat. They have to be more vigilant about it, but there are ways to get all the key amino acids and equivalent proteins.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html

and if your lucky and like marmite, then its a great source for b12,riboflavin and niacin, wheatgerm extract, nicotinic acid, thiamin, and folic acid

Me I can take a good steak or a big slather of marmite on toast, either one is just as good to me, but then I was weaned on marmite LOL!

alfreda

Last edited by aderfla : 10-20-2005 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:36 AM
aderfla aderfla is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart
I’m seeing the question: What has being a vegetarian or an animal activist have to do with art? I actually started this thread as a call to other vegan artists to discuss how being a vegetarian affects their art and their life as an artist.

[ [/font][/size]

I suppose it affects their art in many ways, not just visually but in what supplies they use or don't use. I don't know? Are there certain art supplies you wouldn't use?
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:57 AM
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ban Sidhe
I'm laughing out loud at this. For the following reasons:

-when a cow or steer (btw, if it's raised for beef it's not a cow) is lying down with grass coming out of its mouth like this, it's most likely chewing its cud. Ummmm....normally very content at that time.

-Just because there was a drought (probably not a draught!), you assume that the owner of the animals was not giving them water. How can you (as a self-proclaimed city kid) know if it was dehydrated or not? How did you test it? Do you know enough about cattle to know how to tell??

-Did it occur to you that the reason that it didn't drink the water was because it wasn't thirsty? Maybe because the owner provided water for it? Maybe even somewhere sheltered where you couldn't see it??

-You took a "risk" to go on private property where you could have been shot at?? LOL, where do you live?? What makes you assume that they would SHOOT you?? You're making a lot of assumptions: Cattle owners=bad people=suffering and dying animals=gonna SHOOT me!

-Perhaps the owners yelled at you because they saw a stranger giving something to their animals? Is it possible that they could actually CARE that somebody might be giving their animals something that could harm them?

-As for "lonely". Cattle are herd animals. I'm willing to bet that there were others around this one. Cattle are rarely lonely.


This is a perfect example of seeing what you want to see. I'm not saying that my suggestions are true, but IMHO they are more plausible than yours.

I applaud anyone who follows their conscience in matters like veganism/vegetarianism, but this is going a little too far for me.
Just MHO.
Kate

Thanx for the post, Kate

First, I’m glad you had a good laugh . I trust that you know more about cows than I do.

The drought was very bad that year. There were cracks in the ground etc. I did not see any water around and there were no other cows in that area. He/she appeared to be trying to get up. I would under the same circumstances share my water again .

As for the danger: You are probably right. However I have been threatened with a gun, but never actually shot at. (That I know about LOL)…..Bob
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Old 10-20-2005, 10:49 AM
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Keith Russell Keith Russell is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart
Art is an expression of our culture, and society.

Then why doesn't it all look alike? Why do some despise Thomas Kinkade so much? Why do some hate Rockwell (or Wyeth--see the current Art News?)

No, art is an individual expression, and a complex, multi-layered 'culture' such as ours ('ours' referring to the US in general) is not a single, homogenous unit.

There may be those few cultural items that a majority enjoys, but even to focus only on that, is to miss a great deal.

Nope, art is an individual expression; personal, not 'social'.

Quote:
When we are unearthed thousands of years from now our art will be “Who we were”.

It should be, who each artist was, not who 'we' (as a whole) were.

Quote:
As for the cigar-smoking, meat-eating macho dudes . I get no delight in saying that it is a fact that when and if you reach my age you will not be able to the things I do. You will more than likely need oxygen and a walker or wheelchair to get around. Think of the time you will miss with your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. My advice: [b]Put down the burger, put out the cigar, and go for a walk

Bob, relax. Groucho Marx and George Burns both smoked cigars far more often than I do (I generally smoke one or two a month, on average). They both lived well into their eighties, and had plenty of time for family and friends--well into their waning years.

Keith.
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:38 AM
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Mich451 Mich451 is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

(Actually George lived to be 100)
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:56 AM
aderfla aderfla is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart As for the cigar-smoking, meat-eating macho dudes:cool: . I get no delight in saying that it is a fact that when and if you reach my age you will not be able to the things I do. You will more than likely need oxygen and a walker or wheelchair to get around. Think of the time you will miss with your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. My advice: [b
Put down the burger, put out the cigar, and go for a walk[/b] ……Bob [/font][/size]

I don't think you can make assumptions about people who eat meat or smoke cigars anymore than others can assume one can't live a long healthy life just because they are vegan. Besides are you assuming vegans and vegetarians don't indulge in baccy habits in various forms? or cannot be lazy?

anyways, you didn't answer my question. Are there certain products you won't use due to vegan considerations?
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Old 10-20-2005, 11:56 AM
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windsongmeditation windsongmeditation is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Russell
Then why doesn't it all look alike? Why do some despise Thomas Kinkade so much? Why do some hate Rockwell (or Wyeth--see the current Art News?)

No, art is an individual expression, and a complex, multi-layered 'culture' such as ours ('ours' referring to the US in general) is not a single, homogenous unit.

There may be those few cultural items that a majority enjoys, but even to focus only on that, is to miss a great deal.

Nope, art is an individual expression; personal, not 'social'.



It should be, who each artist was, not who 'we' (as a whole) were.



Bob, relax. Groucho Marx and George Burns both smoked cigars far more often than I do (I generally smoke one or two a month, on average). They both lived well into their eighties, and had plenty of time for family and friends--well into their waning years.

Keith.

I don’t despise those artists, but that’s not my point. When there is an archeological dig, the archeologists use the pottery, drawings, and designs etc. to determine who lived there and what they were like. I was suggesting that if we were dug up in the future what would the archeologists of that time think of us by viewing our art …….it would depend on who's art they dug up.....just a supposition…..Bob


Good for you ….everything in moderation.

The area that I live in is heavily populated with retirees (old folks). I occasionally see the George Burns, Groucho Marx, type. First of all I think their cigars were props and I’m not sure how much actual smoke they inhaled. Maybe they have great longevity genes. However….the most common sight is once strong men and women weakened by disease . Disease I believe brought on by excesses of alcohol, smoking, a bad diet and a lack of exercise.

Health is all……without it, nothing else matters…..Bob
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Last edited by windsongmeditation : 10-20-2005 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 10-20-2005, 12:19 PM
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by alfreda
I don't think you can make assumptions about people who eat meat or smoke cigars anymore than others can assume one can't live a long healthy life just because they are vegan. Besides are you assuming vegans and vegetarians don't indulge in baccy habits in various forms? or cannot be lazy?

anyways, you didn't answer my question. Are there certain products you won't use due to vegan considerations?

Don’t be hostel ….it was a nutty question . But I will answer it. To my knowledge no animals are harmed or killed in the production of my work….except once in a while I catch my cats drinking out of my brush water. (That can’t be good for them)….Bob
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Old 10-20-2005, 12:21 PM
aderfla aderfla is offline
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Re: Vegan Artists

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageart. Maybe they have great longevity genes. However….the most common sight is once strong men and women weakened by disease:( . Disease I believe brought on by excesses of alcohol, smoking, a bad diet and a lack of exercise. [/size
[/font]

Health is all……without it, nothing else matters…..Bob

That is an assumption though. I used to be an auxillary nurse (way back when in england in my youth and no not claiming to be an expert, just my observation after a few years of working in geriatrics) in a nursing home and a lot depends on genes, economics, exposure (factory work or environement), good medical care and preventative medicine. Excesses of *anything* is unhealthy, but I don't see that one can assume that eating meat, the occasional cigar, or a lack of exercise (I suppose it depends on what some people call exercise) leads to desease or early death.

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