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  #286   Report Bad Post  
Old 04-03-2014, 11:17 AM
ianuk ianuk is offline
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Re: What is "cheating" in art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toril
Companies are being taken to court all the time for this. There's also a lot of models and celebrities who are going public against the manipulation of their images on magazine covers these days - because the unrealistic body image is harmful.

I like to think of myself as better than McDonalds's.

That's the difference in our thinking, I am no better or worse than McDonald's and my late wife who was a nutritionist of high esteem would often stop there with me and have a small snack, in fact I like McDonald's ice cream better than any other and I have lived an incredibly full cultured life and eaten at what would be regarded as the best restaurants in the world, doesn't make a difference to me, I like salad sandwiches and cheeseburgers. I forgive people for their fallible ways because I'm fallible myself and I would never believe that most people lie with the hope of gain, profit or to intentionally hurt. Lying is created through a lack of confidence and low esteem, usually from people that are in need of help, not my disgust.

Last edited by ianuk : 04-03-2014 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 04-03-2014, 12:10 PM
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mariposa-art mariposa-art is offline
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Re: What is "cheating" in art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by olive.oyl
I think that's why the morality around "lying" is not just a cut and dried, black and white thing, no matter what we each individually believe or have been taught (and why this thread is so long). To believe that this "should" be so simple, is just simple thinking. Turn off emotion, back away and see the bigger picture.
The "big picture" of lying, ANY type of lying, is certainly not so cut and dried.

But when we narrow it down to things within the artistic process, it becomes far less complicated and much simpler. Will we agree on everything? No, but I fail to see why it is that complicated. I believe that some want to make it more complicated than it really should be.

Does anyone seriously believe that when a person (potential client, maybe) asks a question about: what material they used, what process they went through to make that, or something else pertaining to that process, that the client will not think it's a "lie" if you answer with an untruth? In particular when they ask because they are interested and they care?

Regardless of how much mental gymnastics some may want to go through, the odds are that MOST people WILL think that a lie told to them (about something they care about) is a lie. And if they think it's a lie, they'll also think it's "cheating" and they'll call it cheating.

We can argue and discuss and dispute all we want, but I don't believe that such a response (lie and be considered a liar) will stop happening.

(I'll again repeat that I understand that no one "owes" anyone an answer to a question, in the circumstances I am describing. But, not answering is not the same as telling an untruth.)
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Old 04-03-2014, 12:19 PM
AllisonR AllisonR is offline
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Re: What is "cheating" in art?

I agree with Olive - there is a huge amount of grey area regarding lying, deception, fraud… and they overlap. There is a huge difference between "How are you today" "Fine thank you" (when you'd a little under the weather), and "Is this guy I want to kill in your house" "NO" which I think most people of common sense and humanity would realize that this lie trumps all the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes
I find that odd because as I stated in my post I believe almost everyone lies continually about inconsequential things (apart from someone I knew who was autistic and people did not like to talk to him as he was so blunt or brusque). When someone asks "How are you" they are being polite and don't expect an honest reply.

Perhaps you lie almost continuously, perhaps the habit has become second nature to you. But then to assume everyone else does it all the time I think is not correct. I do not lie all the time, and I find that most other people do not. People do not spend all day asking each other and receiving white lies. Most of live goes on without that, and I try to answer honestly. I don't see the point in making up lies about everything, it's way easier to just tell the truth.
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  #289   Report Bad Post  
Old 04-03-2014, 01:17 PM
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Descartes Descartes is offline
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Re: What is "cheating" in art?

Sorry Mariposa, I should not have used the word spurious. At a risk of digging myself into a bigger hole I don't think a vegan should assume that a painting is vegan unless it is explicitly stated as such. If a painting was identified as vegan and wasn't then that would probably be a lie which would be wrong. Even this though would be complicated as although it is obvious that bone black has animal original that pigment is often used to darken green and blue colours (particular cheaper "hue" blends). Similarly an acrylic gesso is not likely to contain animal products (unlike the original rabbit glue gesso) but what if it, or any of its constituents, was tested on animals which is often required by law?


Quote:
I agree with Olive - there is a huge amount of grey area regarding lying, deception, fraud… and they overlap. There is a huge difference between "How are you today" "Fine thank you" (when you'd a little under the weather), and "Is this guy I want to kill in your house" "NO" which I think most people of common sense and humanity would realize that this lie trumps all the consequences.
Allison, I can see I should stick to just posting artwork as I'm making the wrong impression here as your comment is exactly what I meant by my words. It is not second nature to me to lie, indeed I find it hard to lie and I believe that that is one reason why I'm so bad at social situations.
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Old 04-03-2014, 01:29 PM
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mariposa-art mariposa-art is offline
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Re: What is "cheating" in art?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes
Sorry Mariposa, I should not have used the word spurious. At a risk of digging myself into a bigger hole I don't think a vegan should assume that a painting is vegan unless it is explicitly stated as such. If a painting was identified as vegan and wasn't then that would probably be a lie which would be wrong.
Yes, it would be wrong!
Quote:
Even this though would be complicated as although it is obvious that bone black has animal original that pigment is often used to darken green and blue colours (particular cheaper "hue" blends). Similarly an acrylic gesso is not likely to contain animal products (unlike the original rabbit glue gesso) but what if it, or any of its constituents, was tested on animals which is often required by law?
I don't think a vegan should assume anything either. What I am saying is, IF a vegan (or other animal lover) ASKS, should the artist be okay with lying? Oh no, I use only synthetic brushes! And they use mongoose or sable.

There are all kinds of things that some people care about, even if we don't, even if we think they're stupid things to care about. In my opinion, that doesn't make it okay to lie about them to the people who do care. Not when it comes to art, anyway. It's not life or death. In the context I'm thinking of (technical, nuts and bolts), it's business or a process. It's not like talking about sex or religion, something fraught with emotion and thoughts about our souls, it's a process and we're talking to our clients or patrons or potential fans.

If we're starving and we're having a Jean Valjean moment, it's still a lie, but I think most of us understand why. But in the ordinary course of events, lying to someone just because we think their concern or interest is dumb, or "not any of their business" (in which case, just tell them that), or because we're ashamed (I think shame plays into this a lot) will be regarded as some form of "cheat" or a lie.

Last edited by mariposa-art : 04-03-2014 at 01:32 PM.

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