Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 198 total)
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  • #987569
    Loretta7
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        I’m really having trouble getting my mind around the idea of “values”. What I’m stuck on is … how to make many colors the same value.

        Example: Take yellow and blue, or red and yellow, etc, etc. From what I’ve read, adding black or white to a color will change its value. But how do I know when I’ve reached the same “value” of both colors? Is there an easy way to do this?

        I can change the value of one color, but how can I achieve that same value in another?

        If I have an underpainting and glaze two separate colors over an area that is of a similar black and white area, does that make them the same value? But if I don’t have an underpainting to begin with, how do I know the colors I’ve mixed are the same value?

        I need help grasping this idea!!!

        Loretta

        [FONT="Tahoma"]CxC always welcome :thumbsup:

        #1109108

        Hi Loretta, thanks for your question. First off, value is hard for lots of us to get a good handle on so you’re not alone.

        I’m really having trouble getting my mind around the idea of “values”. What I’m stuck on is … how to make many colors the same value.

        Example: Take yellow and blue, or red and yellow, etc, etc. From what I’ve read, adding black or white to a color will change its value. But how do I know when I’ve reached the same “value” of both colors? Is there an easy way to do this?

        We have to learn to judge this by eye. It helps a lot if you have a value scale to compare to, although it can still be tricky (see final point).

        Just to mention, it’s not just by adding black or white – value can change doing a number of other mixtures, including when blending mixing complements, and it’s important to realise or notice when this happens and compensate if necessary. In the case of some complementary mixtures this would often involve lightening the mix by adding a little white – this is one common method for mixing halftones – although sometimes you’ll need to use more than just white, also adding a touch of yellow for reds or greens for example.

        I can change the value of one color, but how can I achieve that same value in another?

        By judgement/comparison, mixing the second colour with something as required.

        If I have an underpainting and glaze two separate colors over an area that is of a similar black and white area, does that make them the same value?

        This is a good question. Glazing unfortunately complicates things, which is one reason some good painters recommend opaque painting initially until you’ve grasped value well.

        But anyway, the simple answer is no, not really; it depends on the values of the two glazing colours though :) If you imagine a dark blue and a brilliant red applied thinly over one other colour you’ll end up with something darker with the blue, other things being equal, because the blue is darker to begin with. But a thinner coat of the blue and a thicker coat of the red could result in the same value if that’s what the goal is.

        One thing to mention is that value judgement is difficult for brilliant colour; this previous post has some more info and links on to other previous threads that should provide more help:
        https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6883685#post6883685

        Einion

        Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

        Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

        #1109264
        Loretta7
        Default

            Thank you so much for pointing me in the right direction with the listed link. I see that others were seeking an answer to the same problem.

            I see that yes I can produce a value scale by creating a chart for each color, adding other colors to change its value and then check it by greyscaling it in photoshop to have a permanent numbered value colored reference. Well now, I find that quite an interesting project.

            Thanks again :wave: .

            [FONT="Tahoma"]CxC always welcome :thumbsup:

            #1109182
            gunzorro
            Default

                Keep in mind that colors can be lightened and darkened with the same type of color from a different pigment. For example, Yellow can be darkened with a Raw Sienna (upper-middle value) or Raw Umber (darker value), and the mix tends to be partially between the two, depending on proportions. Keep in mind when adding black that yellow tends toward green as it approaches the middle values and becomes more strongly green-colored the darker it becomes — this is normal.

                The three usual colors many painters choose to start with, yellow, red and blue (assuming bright colors), are of different values to start with — they will not equalize in value until changed from the brilliant color that comes from the tube. A “pure yellow” is always high in value (close to white) and never descends to the mid values at full strength. Red, on the other hand, is a mid-valued color and won’t be as vivid at either end of the value scale. Similarly, blue is a darker mid-value and can never get into the lighter values and still be vivid blue.

                The short answer is that there is no direct value parallel between colors (hues), and is partially the reason the color space for pigments (Munsell) is oddly shaped, not a perfect sphere (chroma also is stronger for some colors than others) — it bulges out at the top values for yellow, and bulges out on the bottom darker values for blue-purple.

                #1109125

                A helpful technique is to have a printed strip with a value range of gray squares on it. Nine shades between white to black is useful. You can trim it so the values are on one edge of the strip, or use a hole punch to poke a hole in each value, and hold that up to the two colors you are trying to match. Shift the squares next to the color and see which shade blends with it the closest.

                David Blaine Clemons
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                #1109265
                Loretta7
                Default

                    Thanks Dave and Gunzorro – I guess I have a lot to learn. I’ll work on your suggestions.

                    Thanks again,
                    Loretta

                    [FONT="Tahoma"]CxC always welcome :thumbsup:

                    #1109205
                    LVPainter
                    Default

                        Hi Loretta, I have found a couple of ways to help make value judgements in working with colors.
                        First by mixing equal amounts of your white and black together, you will get your starting value gray. It’s good to see the tinting strength of your white and black, it’s a good test.
                        Next use a little of that mix and add an equal amount of white, see how much lighter (higher in value) it becomes.
                        Continue mixing (equal amounts) of both white to lighten and black to darken until you have a dark which is just lighter than your tube black and a light value gray which is just darker than your tube white. You will have created your value scale. Keep record of your mixes.
                        You can then use the scale to evaluate each of the colors on your palette to determine their starting or tube value and lighten or darken according to your needs.
                        As you train you eye to see value you will naturally move from the gray scale to mixing values using more colors.
                        Hope this basic information will be helpful for you,
                        Sharon

                        #1109266
                        Loretta7
                        Default

                            Thanks Sharon for the good advice. Yes, I plan on keeping a record of mixes.

                            Loretta

                            [FONT="Tahoma"]CxC always welcome :thumbsup:

                            #1109206
                            mr.wiggles
                            Default

                                Jim is right find lower value colors from the same family.
                                Raw Umbra however will make a green when mixed with Yellow.
                                I would use Raw Sienna( as suggested) and Yellow Ocher.
                                Experiment and take notes of the mixtures.

                                If you mix just White and Black you will get a gray that is moving towards blue. You need to add a Raw or Burnt Umbra to bring them towrds neutrals. This is hard stuff, it takes a lot of work but it is worth it.

                                The best way to learn to paint values is to paint plaster casts.
                                If you can afford a good one buy a head, a hand, and a foot.
                                However they are not cheap, but if you really want to get good at this painting black and white value studies is my recomondation.

                                I would advise investing in a Munsell Gray Scale booklet, they are about $55 but the are accurate for neutrals and they are in quarter tones which is nice so you gage how off you are. The only downside to the booklet is that it’s sensitive to light, so you need to keep them out the sun or strong light sources for prolonged periods or they will fade. There is a warning on the back about this.

                                #1109281
                                Dave Hawk
                                Default

                                    Hey Dude a good old technic to use while mixing

                                    If you hold the 2 colors up to each other and squint the darker value color will disapear 1st. Work the other color so that they both will fade together when you squint.
                                    Once you can see colors disapear together that’s a big part of the battle it will become easer with out having to squint all the time.

                                    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I dream a lot. I do more painting when I'm not painting. It's in the subconscious.
                                    Andrew Wyeth:::

                                    #1109109

                                    As far as using darker colours of the same general type to darken yellows, if we assume the earths are the right hue for the starting yellow they might not be the kind of colour that’s really needed. Here’s an example picture that was posted in a prior thread:

                                    Plus, as soon as you mix the yellow with something that shifts its hue toward green or orange those carefully-selected earths wouldn’t match any more.

                                    This aside, it would be very hard to pick a palette where you’re sure they’d be the right hue anyway – earths vary across a surprisingly large range and one person’s Raw Umber would be a very different hue to their Raw Sienna, while someone else’s could be much closer; more detail in this prior thread where there are some Munsell hue definitions posted for a range of earths.

                                    Einion

                                    Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

                                    Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

                                    #1109267
                                    Loretta7
                                    Default

                                        Well all that y’all are saying is still not penetrating my thick skull, so maybe I need some hands-on experimenting to help it sink in.

                                        My MGraham colors arrived the other day – burnt sienna, burnt umber, yellow ochre, black ivory, white, ultramarine blue. Maybe these colors were a poor choice, but that’s what I’ll be beginning to learn with. Also bought a canvas pad which I thought would be appropriate to practice on as I’m sure I’ll be wasting a lot of material. I want to stay with a limited palette at this beginning stage.

                                        I have been deliberately looking about at the colors I see and I’m seeing subtle changes more and more – maybe that’s good. Also, I’m very much surprised when I’m watching older movies on tv and notice how the colors in a scene were distinctly used to achieve an artistic palette. This is really an awakening to me. Anyway, I’m on my journey to understand color at last. Goodness, but it’s not as easy as I thought it would be!

                                        Thank you all for sharing your comments.
                                        Loretta

                                        [FONT="Tahoma"]CxC always welcome :thumbsup:

                                        #1109207
                                        mr.wiggles
                                        Default

                                            Your right it’s not easy. I would start with doing gray scales and painting some black and white paintings. Also you could use two colors and white, Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue. This is a good transition from black and white into some color. Learning how to paint values is easer in black and white. Also by doing it this way you concentrate only on the values.

                                            Good luck!

                                            #1109183
                                            gunzorro
                                            Default

                                                Loretta — I think you have chosen a very nice set to get started. It is definitely not student grade — it is higher quality artist grade paint. And I like that you kept the colors simple, but still a nice range.

                                                I agree with mr. wiggles — try some exercises first making the value scales from black to white with black and white, then try mixing addtional strings of Burnt Sienna + Ultramarine Blue, and another of Burnt Umber + Ultramarine Blue to give you two variations of “neutral grey”. You’ll be wanting neutral grey to knock back the color as it comes from the tube.

                                                Try something and let us know your results.

                                                #1109201
                                                Ribera
                                                Default

                                                    Loretta,
                                                    As far as creating a value gradation for a single hue, technically impossible.
                                                    Every color has, what I’ve heard referred to as it’s home level: it’s most chromatic value. All hues ascending or descending therefrom are, hence, very importantly, less bright. For example, should one choose to manufacture a string of yellows, once one has descended into the lower values, it’s no longer just a true yellow. This is so for all colors. Strings are a thing the human race invented, and they may work well, but, officially, as far as each string being but one chroma- wrong.

                                                    Again, if you were mixing up a string of oranges, whence you got to the darker versions, you must use browns- comprised of more than just yellow and red; -You Must!! In fact, the pair of hues that make orange are mid-value at darkest to begin with. Just use some common sense here.

                                                    You also enquired of how one would match the value while glazing, although I’ll get some argument here, a glaze, by definition, is deeper than what it’s layed atop, as a scumble, higher, so, if I gather you correctly, it seems you essentially misunderstand exactly what a glaze is, i.e. they should never match the value of the underpainting, per se– by glazing/scumbling you’re intentionally adjusting the values.
                                                    As far as learning to mixing values correctly, practice makes perfect.
                                                    r.

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