Hello all,
I have a tube of Mussini’s Alizarin Madder Lake and the pigment label says “PR 83:1”. What does the :1 mean? I think I’ve seen it on other paints but I’ve no idea what it means. That it’s a lake? And if so, is a lake a pigment bound to calcite, or something like that?
Again, I’m horrid with chemistry:crying:
Thanks!
Tom

Hi, Kaef!

Lake pigments are originally dyes, so they need to be bound to something. In the case of Alizarin (PR 83), you can use many things to bind it to.

This :1 just means it is a variation of the main PR 83. In this case, it means the dye is stuck within an alumina base.

It’s also worth noting that your version of PR 83 was made to be similar to genuine madder (NR 9) in color and properties. It’s also as lightfast as any regular Alizarin, so don’t use it for any serious painting – unless you want it to fade!

I know it will fade… I just.. can’t… stop myself!

I know that the prevailing, overwhelming opinion out there is that you shouldn’t use PR83.
That is not my opinion, unless you plan on keeping your paintings stored facing the sun.
I know well that lightfast testing of PR83 shows how badly it fades, that is, if the test strips are stored facing the sun. My thirty to forty some year old paintings with PR83, stored indoors, show no degradation at all, none. If I did want them to fade indoors, I would die trying and failing.
The problem with accelerated lightfast testing, in my opinion, is that it is like waiting for water to boil at room temperature vs waiting for it to boil on a hot stove, then saying that proves it, water will eventually boil just like that at room temp.
Outdoors, I would not use it, but indoors, I have no issue with using it myself, but I am also crazy too .

I know that the prevailing, overwhelming opinion out there is that you shouldn’t use PR83.
That is not my opinion, unless you plan on keeping your paintings stored facing the sun.
I know well that lightfast testing of PR83 shows how badly it fades, that is, if the test strips are stored facing the sun. My thirty to forty some year old paintings with PR83, stored indoors, show no degradation at all, none. If I did want them to fade indoors, I would die trying and failing.
The problem with accelerated lightfast testing,[U] in my opinion[/U], is that it is like waiting for water to boil at room temperature vs waiting for it to boil on a hot stove, then saying that proves it, water will eventually boil just like that at room temp.
Outdoors, I would not use it, but indoors, I have no issue with using it myself, but I am also crazy too .

Sid, how did you use your PR 83? Full masstone only? Tints? Glazing?

Mixing PR 83 with an orange-red pigment will mask any fading you’ll have. Could it also be that your paintings only faded slightly in 30-40 years, and you got used to it?

One example of fading in classical painting with carmine and madder can be seen by comparing the Prado Mona Lisa with its copy, done at the same time by one of Leonardo’s students. The copy was kept in dark fabric for a long time because people weren’t sure of its authenticity.

Here’s the original (Leonardo’s):

Here’s the copy (Leonardo’s student).

Since it was kept in the dark, the madder on red sleeves, the mouth and the cheeks did not fade. It’s much more livelier than the original:

Of course the Leonardo’s work also went through some disastrous cleaning, but the restorers didn’t intend to remove all the madder and/or carmine from the original painting!

To be honest, Aliz is the 2nd most exciting pigment I’ve come across, after Ultramarine. It really makes me want to paint, although I don’t do a lot with it. Frankly, I find the Cadmiums to be boorish dullards. Like a half-drunk guy at a party who won’t stop talking about why you should invest in his pyramid scheme. I use them, but I’m never excited about it.
The Quinacridones are pretty and certainly useable, but they don’t have the same visceral thrill that PR83 has. I know this argument has been done to death but I don’t have any reason to really care whether Alizarin will fade or not. Wabi Sabi and all. Or, possibly, because I use White Lead, Mercuric Sulfide and drink copious amounts of Linseed oil straight from the bottle!
By the bye, how is it that PV19 can be either red, violet or purple? Again, chemistry…
Thanks!
Tom

damn it is so refreshing and delightful to hear someone talk this way about colors and paints!
I speaka yer language too!:D

Hello Gentlefolk,
To be honest, Aliz is the 2nd most exciting pigment I’ve come across, after Ultramarine. It really makes me want to paint, although I don’t do a lot with it. Frankly, I find the Cadmiums to be boorish dullards. Like a half-drunk guy at a party who won’t stop talking about why you should invest in his pyramid scheme. I use them, but I’m never excited about it.
The Quinacridones are pretty and certainly useable, but they don’t have the same visceral thrill that PR83 has. I know this argument has been done to death but I don’t have any reason to really care whether Alizarin will fade or not. Wabi Sabi and all. Or, possibly, because I use White Lead, Mercuric Sulfide and drink copious amounts of Linseed oil straight from the bottle!
By the bye, how is it that PV19 can be either red, violet or purple? Again, chemistry…
Thanks!
Tom

Hi, Tom!

Can you explain what is this “visceral thrill” you feel about Alizarin? Is it how it shifts from masstone to tints? Hue?

As for PV 19, it’s an organic pigment, but one not found in nature, and completely synthetic. It is organic because it has carbon molecules in its formula.

Pigments like these can be created and altered in many ways. In the case of the red, pink, rose, and violet shades of PV 19, I believe it has to do with the particle size. Big particle sizes will produce the darker, violet shades of PV 19, and the smallest will produce the reddest shades.

Maimeri sells the red shade of PV 19 as “Primary Magenta”. Here’s how it looks like (Dickblick swatch):

Hi Mythrill,
Thanks for the explanation on PV19! I’m guessing the same is true for the many variants of PR101 and the like. I do appreciate your going to the trouble to discuss PR83 subs with me.

Hi, Tom!

It’s no trouble at all. I actually like talking about all this with people.

Regarding the many variations of PR 101, you’re right: although they’re inorganic, particle size will make the transparent versions look almost as if they were organic lakes!

As to the appeal of Alizarin Crimson, the best way I can put it, although perhaps a bit moribund, is that it is the exact same color as blood. Beyond that, I can only say that it moves me. :/
Thanks!
Tom

Well, technically, the closest color to blood is Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101).

The reason is because one of the main components of blood is iron, and when human blood is exposed to oxygen, it oxidizes – yes, it rusts!

Transparent Red Iron Oxide pigment (PR 101) is basically red rust around 95%-99% purity.