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Old 02-12-2009, 02:03 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

This is shaping beautifully Colleen...but how could it be anything else coming from you? And thanks for showing us how you do it.

Kathy
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:09 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

Had another go Don...I didn't worry about the hair or extras...just concentrated on the face. Even though a run-of-the-mill oil painter and using pencil - I can usually capture likenesses pretty well, but not here.

However, still trying to manipulate the pastels and have to keep trying.





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Old 02-12-2009, 02:28 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

thanks Kathy, but I have no idea how to do this yet, and I hope Don has some wise words as to where I'm off and why
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:54 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

Hi Colleen, I hate to disagree with anyone in my class, but this is looking really good so far. Your head shape is very good, the mouth is already a likeness! I had to go to extremely detailed analysis to find anything at all that wasn't right on. Please be aware that I saw nothing wrong using my normal measuring techniques!



I had to use the computer to actually overlay guidelines form the ref onto your painting. I found two minor things. Putting a reference frame around each, your painting is slightly narrower (the difference between the red line and yellow line). The nose and mouth are perfectly located, so that means the child's right side of the face (our left) is just slightly wider. Keep in mind that my drawing these reference frames on the computer is not an exact science, and your head width may be just as correct as my speculations!

The second point is the location of the eye socket and value shape of the child's left eye. The red line equals the line from your reference. You can see that your eye socket gets too close to that line and could shift slightly to the right (our right!).

The other eye looks like you have started it in the right spot! These very slight modifications are definitely part of the process as you measure and refine the value shapes.

Even without the eyes drawn in, this is already recognizable. As I said, without using the computer to overlay the ref information onto your painting, I would say you have the shapes almost exactly correct!

Keep in mind that children are much more difficult than adults as far as portraiture goes, as they have so much less information (in terms of wrinkles, creases, etc.) to offer us!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by winecountry
OMG this likeness thing is just so dang hard. I'm following along as best I can, and watching all the work, seems like most people get it, so I have to just keep trying.

here is a child, my grandniece, I have an oil started, but it's not going well so I'm going to try pastel, which is a bit easier, for me anyway.

I did the line thing here


and then the value thing here, but you can see already I'm way off
and I really tried hard

Help! Maybe Don can do a demo for me to show how it should look
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:01 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

thank you Don! maybe you could go through how to do the computer thing, I can't seem to figure out how to draw a straight lines or a square I have Photoshop

I'm trying to figure out why it looks so off to me? as your reply shows it's not that off, but to me, really I mean this without being a nutcase, it looks so far off.

I'll continue on this one as I have to gain some insight in to this likeness thing, and to keep me motivated it helps having a personal connection to my subject.

I will trust your judgement, as you are more experienced than me, and I'm really learning a lot here, more than any other place I've tried. And I can see with more experience putting in the value shapes is a real key, and I'll get better with practice. Thanks.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:44 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

I meant to take pics a I went from the start & forgot until more into it SO two pics... The second is where I am now.... & i did measure..(with the pastel stick from the monitor... BUT.. as I painted I lost my marks.. now I think eyes are too close, once again.. & probably much more... I have the worse time with noses!
I also would love to know how you do the boxes & reference lines.. I have gimp but no photohop..TIA!
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:41 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

lovely maw you really caught her expression

Have decided to really put my shoulder to the grindstone, and go for the most absolute exactness I can get, that way I'll get it out of my system, and submitting to that discipline will make me slow down, then I can loosen up after.

I'm doing just a grisaille, with pastel pencils, a dark and light grey and a white and black. I'm just trying to see shapes and values, and measuring away, using the eye as my standard, this is really helping get things in place. Also drew plum lines on the photo printout, and some eye widths, for instance there is one ew from the corner of the eye to the bottom of the nostril...

Is this right Don? by doing that I found the head too narrow just as you pointed out.
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:50 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

Thanks colleen.. I am loving that baby!!
This one is closer to real color.. & I worked on the nose & eyes a little...
I inherited some new supplies.. this is on black suede.. I have lots of it, so will be using it alot... it is hard to cover!
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:36 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

Kathy,

This is looking good! Before I get to the critique, I want to say that you have done a nice job modeling the face and giving it really nice form and depth. When I post these measuring critiques, it always looks worse than it is because all the lines and arrows!



First thing I did was to put my reference frame around each (it is the narrower one on your painting, my first one was a little too wide). You will probably notice that the ref is a bit longer and narrower, I think mainly because of some added height in the amount of hair, and maybe the chin could be a touch longer (not sure - it's close). The chin may look a little short, not because it is too short, but because the shadow on the side of her face angles slightly more toward the chin, making it a little pointier (red lines). You have made that shadow shape more curved.

That top of head to hairline dimension is easily painted to short - very common - in fact, that is one area I always double-check. The only other thing I really notice is that the eyes may be a bit too close together. Other than that, really nice! Again, the shadows on the side of her face are very nicely done!

P.S. Don't tell anyone, but most of my portrait experience was with pencils and I thought I would never be able to do one with those clumsy pastels. I won't tell you how long it took me to get the hang of them. You are doing great!

Don



Quote:
Originally Posted by kadon
Had another go Don...I didn't worry about the hair or extras...just concentrated on the face. Even though a run-of-the-mill oil painter and using pencil - I can usually capture likenesses pretty well, but not here.

However, still trying to manipulate the pastels and have to keep trying.





Kathy
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:55 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

T, Another very nice painting! There are some very small angles and measurements around the eyes that I would look a little closer at, but otherwise, very nicely done!



I rotated the ref so that it is more in line with your painting - rotating the ref is perfectly fine, by the way. The things I noticed were extremely subtle, but I drew a few lines to indicate possible differences with the ref. The angle of the top of her eyelid is a little flatter (red line) and the angle of the shadow shape is a little different (blue line). If you move that shadow over slightly, you might indeed be right, and that eye (her right) may be a bit too close to the nose. Her nose is a bit wider, so that may throw off your measurements slightly, if you were using the nose width to compare with the eyes. I think there is also a slightly more downward curve toward the inside of that eye (arrow shows where the pit of the eye may be).

These things are all pretty tiny - all in all, this is very nicely done!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by maw-t
I meant to take pics a I went from the start & forgot until more into it SO two pics... The second is where I am now.... & i did measure..(with the pastel stick from the monitor... BUT.. as I painted I lost my marks.. now I think eyes are too close, once again.. & probably much more... I have the worse time with noses!
I also would love to know how you do the boxes & reference lines.. I have gimp but no photohop..TIA!
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:17 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

This is looking great Colleen! I wish I could find a way to let you know that you are doing great at getting a likeness! I think it should be pointed out, that when you put the photo and the painting side by side, the painting always has differences. (Well, mine do - that's for sure!) In my demo, when I was done with the painting, I thought I had caught the likeness fairly well. I recognized the person (she's someone I know). Yet, when compared side-by-side, I see tons of things that aren't right. At a certain point, you have to minimize your comparisons with the photo and let the painting stand on its own!



The only area that I would look at closely, is the eye socket that's in shadow. In fact, I lightened the photo to see that area better. It is possible that that eye is just a fraction of an inch too close to the nose - although at the moment one can not really distinguish between the shadow and the eye itself. I would distinguish between the slightly lighter shadow that comes down from the nose, and the darker shadow of the eye socket itself (red arrow), just to make sure the corner of that eye is in the right spot.

Aside from that, I see nothing out of place - and even what I see may not be out of place! This is really looking good!

Don

Quote:
Originally Posted by winecountry
lovely maw you really caught her expression

Have decided to really put my shoulder to the grindstone, and go for the most absolute exactness I can get, that way I'll get it out of my system, and submitting to that discipline will make me slow down, then I can loosen up after.

I'm doing just a grisaille, with pastel pencils, a dark and light grey and a white and black. I'm just trying to see shapes and values, and measuring away, using the eye as my standard, this is really helping get things in place. Also drew plum lines on the photo printout, and some eye widths, for instance there is one ew from the corner of the eye to the bottom of the nostril...

Is this right Don? by doing that I found the head too narrow just as you pointed out.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:22 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

Quote:
Originally Posted by winecountry
I'm trying to figure out why it looks so off to me? as your reply shows it's not that off, but to me, really I mean this without being a nutcase, it looks so far off.

I do not know why! While I had to use a computer to find the small differences, I would never recommend going to that detail to compare. A ruler, and your eye, should be exact enough!


Quote:
Originally Posted by winecountry
And I can see with more experience putting in the value shapes is a real key, and I'll get better with practice. Thanks.

Yes, the value shapes are the key! And you are doing excellent!

Don
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:20 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

thank you Don, that helps, and I did notice that eye and moved it, I did that by using the eye width measure...Here it is now I really struggled with the nose

And now I find what Don means, it still does not look just like the expression in the photo, but there is something that is there, so is it enough?

I'm going to start the color now so I can still change things
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:45 AM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

this is not a measure thing, but thought you might like to see how the grisaille
works before its all covered up, this is just by the seat of my pants stuff, cause I've not done it before, but it looks like the eyes can stand as is, the grisaille is working as a nice green tone under the skin so places it just functions as the areas of veins, or shadow, pretty neat! I'm sort of in a scramble to find skin tones in my pastels as I dont use them for this purpose usually.

I've given up on anymore likeness on this one, I'll finish and try again. practice makes perfect I hope
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:01 PM
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Re: ESP - Portrait & Figure Fundamentals - Lesson 3: Measuring

I've been enjoying following along with this thread, seeing all the great artwork and learning a lot about portraits. I'm new to pastels -- really new, I just ordered my first set of pastels and they should be here next week. I wanted to jump in here with you guys and didn't want to wait for the pastels, so I did a charcoal drawing. Hope that's OK. Feedback welcome. I can already see some problems, it looks like the right eye is slightly larger or droopier than the left, and I'm sure there are other things I'm not noticing. I found the measuring very helpful in trying to get everything where it's supposed to be. Thanks!



Nancy
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