Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Genuine Naples Yellow and PBr24 Comparison

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  • #987779
    gunzorro
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        At Einion’s request for additional info regarding oil paint characteristics and differences between genuine Naples Yellow and what is often touted as the “hue” version, PBr24, I was inspired to produce this comparison sheet and give some of my observations.

        The first point I’d like to address is that PBr24 is often labeled “Naples Yellow” in various brands that refuse to produce “toxic” paints made with lead and other metal pigments. Even Michael Harding lists it as such, even though he makes two versions shown here of genuine stuff!

        I feel it is unfortunate that PBr24 is associated with the concept of “hue”, or imitation, because that generally means “cheap replacement” in the nomenclature of lower quality artist and student brands.

        PBr24 is an outstanding pigment and deserves greater respect standing on its own. Even to call it “Gold Ochre” or some other misdirected term is unwarranted, as it behaves quite a bit differently from natural earths — more like a synthetic Mars color. Despite the lack of respect it normally gets, in this thread it will be happily promoted simply by its pigment name whenever possible. ;)

        All the samples of PBr24 shown here are very opaque, nearly equal to cadmiums in covering power. All samples have excellent pigment load.

        The column on the left shows five examples of undiluted single pigment PBr24. From top to bottom:

        Vasari Tuscan Yellow
        Mussini Naples Yellow Deep
        Old Holland Naples Yellow Deep Extra
        Vasari Naples Orange
        Harding Naples Yellow (quote marks added for ironic purpose)

        For those unfamiliar with my procedure: I mix up the original paint “nut” with my palette knife — to the paint remaining on the end of the knife, I pick up a roughly equal amount of white paint and mix these together 50/50. To that new mix on the end of the knife, I again add an equal amount of white, and so on. This gives a good idea of the hue and the relative tinting strength.

        The white used is fairly neutral in strength, hue and opacity — a mixture of about 50/50 lead + titanium with some Graham Walnut Alkyd added on the palette to improve mixing. I base the photo color balance on this white.

        Comments on the PBr24 paints:

        Vasari Tuscan Yellow — Very deep yellow, moving toward orange, and strong tinting strength. Very smooth and easy to brush. An outstanding color like no other in my collection.

        Mussini Naples Yellow Deep — Most muted of the samples shown, with moderate tinting strength. Closest color match to genuine Naples Yellow Dark versions, but slightly darker and stronger tinting. Slightly stiffer consistency than Vasari, but still creamy and not waxy.

        Old Holland Naples Yellow Deep Extra — Slightly lower chroma, but intense tinting strength — runner-up to Harding for best tinting strength. Very stiff and firm, but not waxy.

        Vasari Naples Orange — This particular sample is atypical of the consistency of the Vasari line — it shows as being “soupy”. Despite that very long consistency, it has very good tinting strength and wonderful blending. Slightly stronger than the Mussini, but similar hue.

        Harding Naples Yellow — I rate this sample as the best of the choices shown here. Chroma is intense and tinting strength is unsurpassed. Wonderful orange hue in the tints.

        If I were to choose two from this selection, it would be Vasari’s Tuscan Yellow at the top, and Harding’s Naples Yellow at the bottom.

        ************

        Genuine Naples Yellow

        I’ve added Blockx Venetian Red to a set of mixes with the various Naples offerings. The reasoning being that most people attracted to genuine Naples are likely purists who will be interested in skin tones in portraiture, where mixes of Naples and earth reds truly shine. It might take some close observation to see differences between the various Venetian Red mixes, as it so easily dominates the Naples Yellow.

        The Blockx Naples Yellow samples were generously provided directly from Jacques Blockx. They came as small sample tubes of around 5ml to 10ml in size. These are part of the hard-to-come-by, and extremely expensive, Blockx Historical Pigments, which include genuine Vermilion and Lapis Lazuli, all of which were donated to provide this exposure and comparison between brands. Special thanks to the Blockx company and Jacques in particular.

        I’ve added Robert Doak’s genuine Lead-Tin Yellow to the bottom of the columns. Although it is not a Naples Yellow, it is likewise a Histoical Pigment in the same family, sharing some the same chemistry. I needed to dilute the paint with the Walnut Alkyd because it is so stiff from the tube (not polymerized, just very thick paste!).

        It will be easy to notice that the genuine Naples pigments have greatly lower tinting strength. For subtle applications, like skin tones, this is a decided advantage over stronger tinting colors, making delicate transistions easier to achieve.

        Here are the paints and my comments:

        Harding Naples Yellow Light — The brightest, lightest of the Naples samples — very high chroma from the tube. Consistency is buttery smooth with stiff short peaks. Semi-opaque.

        Vasari Naples Yellow — Slightly lower chroma than the Harding version, but greater tinting strength. Slightly pastier consistency than Harding, but creamy and good at blending. More opaque than Harding.

        Blockx Naples Yellow Light — Your eyes are not deceiving you — the hue is slightly greenish! A very unusual color. Both Blockx samples are ground in poppy oil, which helps keep the colors as bright as possible, and the consistency is beyond compare — so smooth and easy to spread. Tint strength and opacity is on par with Vasari, and above Harding, but still, weak in both as is the nature of this pigment. Interesting that the mix with Venetian goes slightly darker and slightly more neutral as the green in the Naples partially neutralizes the red in the Venetian.

        Blockx Naples Yellow Dark — Strongest tinter and best opacity of all the Naples samples shown. Highest chroma mix with Venetian. Outstanding handling — perfect. This should be included in an Oil Paint Hall of Fame for its making, handling and historical fidelity.

        Harding Naples Yellow Dark — Our readily available alternative to the Blockx verison above. Tinting strength and opacity are quite a bit less than the Blockx, but color is very good, especially from the tube. Handling is a match to the Light version — very smooth and creamy.

        Doak Lead-Tin Yellow — Another historic lead-based yellow. Similar in hue to the Naples (lead-antimony), but better opacity and about equally weak tinting strength. Very stiff consistency, with slight grit from the ceramic glaze basis of the pigment.

        Of the readily available genuine Naples, Vasari is my favorite. If price was no object, the Blockx Dark version would be in my paint drawer as well. ;)

        #1113444
        monkhaus
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            The Blockx Naples Light is gorgeous. The Vasari looks like its a touch greenish too on my monitor. Actually, the darks looks more orange to me and the lights more green all the way through.

            Thank you, as always for all of your work.

            #1113449
            rltromble
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                Gunzo, you go on paint spending sprees don’t you. I have the W&N Naples yellow and the georgian left over in my student paints. Its an intreating color, I just don’t use it much. The harding naples looks almost good enough to eat, well paint with anyways. My have to buy that one next.

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                #1113425
                Brian Firth
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                    JIm, are you sure the Vasari Tuscan Yellow is pure PBr24? It seems quite obvious that it has been bumped up with an organic yellow, probably their indian yellow. I have seen many versions of PBr24, in paint and dry pigment, and none tint like that or have that masstone. I did a mix with a pure PBr24 and PY110 and it looked very much like the Vasari color.

                    Do you know who even sells the Blockx naples yellows in the US? They sound great!

                    Lastly, if you haven’t already, you should try the Natural Pigments naples yellows. I have the dry pigments, and the paint I have mulled is much deeper and more opaque than the Harding genuine naples yellows I have. I would assume the triple roll milled version of their pre-made paint would be excellent.

                    Again, a great comparison thread!

                    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
                    -- Carl Sagan

                    Brian Firth

                    #1113418

                    One word for this thread Jim, awesome!

                    Thanks so much for all the effort (and paint!) :)

                    Einion

                    Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

                    Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

                    #1113419

                    JIm, are you sure the Vasari Tuscan Yellow is pure PBr24? It seems quite obvious that it has been bumped up with an organic yellow, probably their indian yellow. I have seen many versions of PBr24, in paint and dry pigment, and none tint like that or have that masstone. I did a mix with a pure PBr24 and PY110 and it looked very much like the Vasari color.

                    That does sound plausible Brian but how much variation is there between the Chrome Titanates you have?

                    I tend to have a given mental picture of what colour this pigment is but it’s available in a much wider span of hues than I remembered.

                    Einion

                    Do you know if your colour is off in hue, value, chroma... or all three?

                    Colour Theory & Mixing forum WetCanvas Glossary Search Tips Advanced Search Acrylics forum Acrylics - Information Kiosk

                    #1113427
                    gunzorro
                    Default

                        Einion — Thanks! I was hoping you’d enjoy it! :) I’ve never done a single sheet comprehensive comparison of these two pigments, so that was great to get accomplished.

                        Brian — Vasari is pretty good about disclosing pigments for anything other than proprietary mixes, like the Christensen Western Grey series. Vasari prides itself on its purity of pigment and milling process.

                        In the Vasari catalog, they list Tuscan Yellow as single pigment, PBr24. Here is their text description:

                        “Suffused with an intense, golden light this very warm Titanium Orange is a delicious, opaque yellow, akin to Indian Yellow.”

                        Vasari has no need to beat around the bush — if they were using Indian Yellow PY139, they could simply say so.

                        Just above the Tuscan Yellow listing is their permanent version of Sap Green listed as PY139, PG7, PBk6. They would have had ample space to add more pigment numbers to the Tuscan Yellow, had there been a need! ;)

                        A few years ago, when I still had an interest in mulling paint, I was intrigued by Kremer’s listing of both Titanium Yellow and Titanium Orange, both supposed to be Chrome Titanate. (There may have even been a third variation.) At the time, I very so curious to see how those colors would appear, being obviously different in hue.

                        I agree that the color invites questions, being so different, but I’m satisfied by the Vasari information.

                        #1113445
                        monkhaus
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                            Gunz, what Vasari catalog do you have? Nothing of theirs I have, or have seen, discloses actual pigment numbers. Either “proprietary” or pure cerulean, cobalt etc. but nothing else….

                            #1113428
                            gunzorro
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                                It’s their standard catalog/pamphlet/order form. Have you ordered from them before? They usually send it with orders or on request.

                                If you would like to know any pigment #s, let me know and I’ll post them here.

                                #1113450
                                rltromble
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                                    It maybe its the way they treat it or the oil they use.

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                                    #1113446
                                    monkhaus
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                                        Hey Gunz,

                                        Would you be willing to post all of the Pigment Numbers that you have for Vasari? I just checked my most recent pamphlet and it’s the complete one but I have no pigment numbers listed. Looked at the others, same thing… gives the Series, a description of the paint and that’s it.

                                        #1113439
                                        LGHumphrey
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                                            Thanks Jim, wonderful thread.

                                            Lawrence Humphrey
                                            Torrelles, Spain

                                            #1113423
                                            stoney
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                                                Genuine Naples Yellow

                                                I’ve added Blockx Venetian Red to a set of mixes with the various Naples offerings. The reasoning being that most people attracted to genuine Naples are likely purists who will be interested in skin tones in portraiture, where mixes of Naples and earth reds truly shine. It might take some close observation to see differences between the various Venetian Red mixes, as it so easily dominates the Naples Yellow.

                                                Of the readily available genuine Naples, Vasari is my favorite. If price was no object, the Blockx Dark version would be in my paint drawer as well. ;)

                                                Thank you. Concerning the Venetian Red; a nut of it was added to the Naples Yellow. From that point on there was the addition of the white then again?

                                                The last time Religion and Government were 'joined at the hip' people were burned at the stake.

                                                #1113429
                                                gunzorro
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                                                    Brian — As far as I know, the Historical Paints are special order directly from Blockx. They are small production run and not sold on the normal distribution channels. Contact Blockx directly for information on price and availability.

                                                    Stoney — You are correct — each mix is a series further diluted with equal amounts of white.

                                                    #1113424
                                                    stoney
                                                    Default

                                                        Brian — As far as I know, the Historical Paints are special order directly from Blockx. They are small production run and not sold on the normal distribution channels. Contact Blockx directly for information on price and availability.

                                                        Stoney — You are correct — each mix is a series further diluted with equal amounts of white.

                                                        Thank you.

                                                        The last time Religion and Government were 'joined at the hip' people were burned at the stake.

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