Bargue Drawing Course, Ongoing thread - Page 3

Classical Vince · #31 05-16-2005, 08:46 PM

I think this is going to be a popular thread, no one else on WC has even attempted such a feat. Looking great there Richard, I've had to raise the bar on you, looking forward to your progress

As I mentioned, my best friend decided to work in paint off the Bargues after completing quite a few drawings. Here is her work, I know she wont mind me posting it. She started with a toned surface using Red Ochre, I liked the effect.

She is an amazing portrait artist who just got signed with a gallery. We both studied at the same school a couple years ago and have become great friends. I love art!!!

bjs0704 · #32 05-16-2005, 11:05 PM

Thanks for posting your friend’s painting! It is quite an interesting painting!
It's nice to see other ways of using the Bargue drawings.

Barb Solomon

rjKing · #33 05-16-2005, 11:09 PM

Pretty cool! Absolutely love the affect of the red ochre.. gives it a sandstone bas relief feel.

These are plates 34 and 35...

Tell your friend to double check the ear in the right had cast (plate 35)... angles look a might funny. Also question some of the value reads in the collar for plate 35.

Truly small issues.. these are just fantastic.

TempusFugit · #34 05-17-2005, 12:26 AM

Richard,

Yes, a flash was used, but even under the best lighting conditions my line quality is rather chunky/awkward.

Hopefully this will improve.

Your work is so refined. Looking forward to viewing next one.

Barb- thanks

TF

Anita Murphy · #35 05-17-2005, 03:43 PM

Richard - Found where you were hiding! Now I can sit and absorb the knowledge!

rjKing · #36 05-17-2005, 04:42 PM

Welcome to the fun zone present!

A note on method, (gathering all the info into one thread that is spread among all the threads I've put in D&S and here..)

There are two books that are indispensable to this work..

The first is the Bargue book.. it can be found:

Dahesh Museum

And

Amazon: Bargue Book

For the approach of how to get an accurate drawing (a more mechanical description of sight size and angular measurement), this book is my bible:

Ryder's Figure Drawing book

For all these exercises, I'm doing as suggested in the back of the Bargue book, which is creating 18x24 copies of the plates (Office Max baby!), and sight size copying them (setup a drawn plumb line, stand away from work and use a knitting needle to set up initial points, use angular measurement and plumb comparisons to check relationships). For the proportional setup, I use Ryder's envelope method in combination with the suggestions for reference lines as given in the Bargue plates. I refer to the original Bargue book for all value work, since the 18x24 copies are dreadful from a value point of view.

For me, the first 4 were done in graphite.. starting at 5 and on I'll use graphite for setup only, and charcoal for all line and value work since it is quicker when dealing with larger areas of shadow, and I'm extremely familiar with charcoal and its handling.. I'm actually somewhat unfamiliar with graphite by comparison.. although the hours expended so far in Bargue have made it less so.

Finally, a note on the use of a drawn or taped plumb line, which had mystified me until just a couple of days ago..

All methods of sight size start with drawing/taping an independent vertical plumb line either near your reference toward the drawing or on your drawing toward the reference.. the reason is simple.. when you want to take horizontal measurements for reference points (say the top and bottom of a cast, figure, etc.), the very first thing you do is verify that your measuring tool (knitting needle, thread, etc.) is at right angles to the drawn/taped plumb line. Then you take your measurement and compare to your drawing. This guarantees that you are consistently reading from a level horizontal when measured against plumb.. your eye is very good at detecting those right angles.. so it becomes a snap to get highly accurate readings this way.

Plate 5 made my lack of understanding apparent.. For an hour I just couldn't figure out where the toes should be placed on my drawing.. and every time I'd measure it would be different (my ref is right, drawing on left.. so the toes are a very long distance from the plumb line since they are on the left, making any variation from a level horizontal pronounced when taking measurements).

bjs0704 · #37 05-17-2005, 06:21 PM

Richard - Thanks for the wonderful description of your working methods! It is really appreciated!

Barb Solomon

TempusFugit · #38 05-19-2005, 01:07 AM

Hello,
Am alternating between personal project and Bargue so today finished Plate2.
Thanks for the procedural notes Richard, your insights and explanations are very helpful. :-)
TF

-----------------And some Van Gogh inspiration-

"I am still working on Bargue's Cours de Dessin, and intend to finish it before I go on to anything else, for both my hand and my mind are growing daily more supple and strong as a result, and I cannot thank Mr. Tersteeg enough for having been so kind as to lend it to me. The models are outstanding. Meanwhile I am reading one book on anatomy and another on perspective, which Mr. Tersteeg also sent me. These studies are demanding and sometimes the books are extremely tedious, but I think all the same that it's doing me good to study them.

So you see that I am working away hard, though for the moment it is not yielding particularly gratifying results. But I have every hope that these thorns will bear white blossoms in due course and that these apparently fruitless struggles are nothing but labour pains. First the pain, then the joy."

-Letter from Vincent van Gogh to Theo van Gogh
24 September 1880
----------------
Bargue Plate 2
2H Graphite on 11x14 Bond

bjs0704 · #39 05-19-2005, 12:02 PM

TempusFugit - Good going! (I’m going to let the others do the more exacting critique. I don’t feel far enough along to comment.) It is really great to see that you are at it! It’s interesting to see your guidelines!

Barb Solomon

Danny · #40 05-19-2005, 12:13 PM

All I can say is keep on keeping on, your doing great. I feel like when I was a kid watching someone ride a bike right after taking their training wheels off and as they stopped wobbling and started peddling in earnest everyone was applauding and cheering. Keep on peddleinggggggggggg lolol You’re inspiring with your dedication.

Danny

rjKing · #41 05-20-2005, 02:37 PM

Tempus,

Per our discussion, here is a critique.. I"m not hitting all of the faces.. just two.. but I believe what I'm point out exists in most of them.. I still think these are excellent, but my take is you need to slow down and take more time correcting and double checking your proportions (my tendency was to want to rush also..)

Face one..

First is original, 2nd is TF's copy..

I rotated your copy until the mouth lines angled the same, then made all measurements from there..

I used PS Pro to draw green lines indicating where I see differences between the ref and your drawing..

Specifically around the chin and how it relates to the rest of the drawing.

rjKing · #42 05-20-2005, 02:43 PM

Face two..

First is original, 2nd is TF's copy..

I rotated your copy until the mouth lines angled the same, then made all measurements from there..

I used PS Pro to draw green lines indicating where I see differences between the ref and your drawing..

Angle of nostril looks incorrect

angle of lip top looks steep.

angle between end of bottom of lip and chin line looks funny, angle of first line segment of chin is different. I also question the placement of the shadow at the bottom of the chin line.

Hint (at least this works for me) double check all angle relationships between the endpoints of lots of lines to pick them up... don't trust in just one line to one other.. think: 'check the endpoint of this one against all others' (or at least all others that are relatively close..)

Overall I think the proportions are extremely close in all the faces, but the angles tell the real truth!

TF.. hope this all helps.. I still think these are really great. I found I was making these types of mistakes a lot on the eyes in plate 1, and subsequently decided to slow down a LOT in my setup before commiting to line. Each face took me 1.5 hours.. with 95% of the time in setup.. I literally drew the dark lines in about 5 minutes (over a very light adjusted setup drawing done with 2H pencil for the first 85 minutes!)..

TempusFugit · #43 05-20-2005, 10:00 PM

Thanks all for comments and encouragement!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjKing

Tempus,
Hint (at least this works for me) double check all angle relationships between the endpoints of lots of lines to pick them up... don't trust in just one line to one other.. think: 'check the endpoint of this one against all others' (or at least all others that are relatively close..)

Richard,
Thanks for your insights and taking the time do a critique and PSPro angle references!

As you point out, it is now so clear (and I was missing this completely)
1-I've been relying almost totally on the horizontals and verticals and ignoring the angle relationships, and
2- checking against only a few endpoints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjKing

but my take is you need to slow down and take more time correcting and double checking your proportions

- right on the money about rushing.

TF

bjs0704 · #44 05-21-2005, 12:31 AM

Richard - Thanks for showing your corrections. It does help in learning the process!

TF - Good luck with your drawings!

Barb Solomon

rjKing · #45 05-21-2005, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TempusFugit

Thanks all for comments and encouragement!

Richard,
Thanks for your insights and taking the time do a critique and PSPro angle references!

As you point out, it is now so clear (and I was missing this completely)
1-I've been relying almost totally on the horizontals and verticals and ignoring the angle relationships, and
2- checking against only a few endpoints.

- right on the money about rushing.

TF

I think speed comes with time.. glad to be of assistance!

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