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View Poll Results: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette
Yes: I use it with almost every painting 109 27.74%
Sometimes: I can not find a replacement color 61 15.52%
Never: it is a fugitive color and its use is irresponsible 223 56.74%
Voters: 393. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:06 AM
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Drollaeem Drollaeem is offline
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

The first and only watercolor magazine I bought, about a year ago, had an article on triads, and they recommended Alizarin Crimson. In fact, they also recommended Aureolin, and Rose Madder. Not a CMY triad in sight.

And that is why I've only ever bought the one magazine.

But it does lend a lot of heft to the theory that people buy it because it's still being recommended!

Three Cheers for Handprint, WC, and the internet in general.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:19 AM
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virgil carter virgil carter is offline
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Yes, the issue with fugitive paints live on and will probably do so for many, many years. It's not just the issue of dueling color wheel theories--RYB vs. CMY. It's more an issue of one not doing one's due diligence about one's paints, and/or simply not caring, IMO.

It's one thing to have learned to use these fugitive paints many years ago, when there were fewer modern pigments and less available information about lightfastness, but it's another thing entirely to continue to use and recommend these paints with today's available information.

Of course, for those in the illustration business world, where longevity is not an issue, this is not really an important consideration. For the rest of us in the fine art painting world, it should be an important issue whether or not we sell our work or simply keep it in our private homes.

Longevity and durability are issues that affect the watercolor world as a whole, and folks who allow their paintings to deteriorate due to fugitive paints (whether professional painters or hobby painters) simply undermine the value of watercolor for the rest of us who take our work seriously and try to convince collectors and galleries to think likewise about watercolor.

Just a thought about the importance of lightfastness for everyone.

Sling paint,
Virgil
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:42 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

About a month ago, I wrote to Kay Barnes... she's a well know artist who's partnered up with Daniel Smith to promote some of her line... Her work is absolutely beautiful and very inspirational. Which means that many artists would take to heart those colours she's chosen for her palette.

My letter:
Kay, I admire your beautiful work. It was exciting to see that
Daniel Smith has sponsored you which I saw in their most recent catalogue.
However, I'm concerned that you are recommending two fugitive pigments,
Alizarin Crimson and Aureolin. It has been well documented that both
colours will fade and/or change over time. Since you definitely inspire
both new and experienced artists, I wish you would eliminate these colours
from your palette. I would appreciate your feedback!


Yesterday, I received her response!
Hi Charlene,
I have taken your e-mail concerns to heart and I have been diligently looking at all sorts of options for alizarin crimson and aureolin. Aureolin is easy to replace, actually, I seldom use it anymore because I really prefer Nickel azo yellow. I will remove it from my palette .
The substitutes suggested (by numerous sources) for alizarin crimson leave me more baffled than ever. There are so many options offered, but none seem to satisfy the need for permanence and still give the hue I need for reliable and attractive mixtures. I have considered a dozen other pigments and here is what I have discovered..
Daniel Smith created perm aliz crimson. This is a mixture of aliz crimson with Quinacradone red added for permanence. It is not the same hue, and separates out when used in wet washes..Anthraquinoid is also suggested but is much brighter and more intense and does not yield satisfying muted purples and absolutely kills greens when neutralizing is all I want.. It is so staining it is very difficult for many artists to work with. I found Pyrlene Maroon with quin rose is a close imitation and very lightfast.
Daniel Smith brand is what I tried. Would you have any advice or counsel for me? Try this mixture and let me know what you think. I am going to work towards a more transparent as well as lightfast palette and I really appreciate your input. I have wrestled with this issue for some time, and because of your e-mail, I have put it at the top of my list of priorities.
Thanks for your interest,
Warmly,
Kay Barnes

Kay Barnes CWS NWWS
[email protected]
206.372.7611


Kay's reply to me is such an encouraging note. I will be writing back to her, but I'm still struggling to find an alizarin crimson (PR83) substitute myself!
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:44 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Good for Kay! She's got my respect and admiration as a person and a painter. Char, thanks for your always good work and wonderful ability to communicate well.

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Virgil
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:08 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

to you Char for taking the time to write the letter and to her for not becoming defensive and saying she has moved this issue to the top of her list of things to do.

Sylvia
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:09 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Quote:
Originally Posted by painterbear
to you Char for taking the time to write the letter and to her for not becoming defensive and saying she has moved this issue to the top of her list of things to do.

Sylvia

Agreed!
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:13 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

On the DS website it lists Permanent Alizarin Crimson as PR177, PV19 and PR149. Alizarin Crimson as PR83. So I don't see Permanent Alizarin Crimson as Alizarin Crimson and Quin. red or am I mistaken?
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:16 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I would be interested to know what proportion of Pyrlene Maroon and Quin. Rose is used for a close match to Alizarin Crimson.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:23 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Handprint describes Pyrlene Maroon PR 179 as "...a lightfast, transparent, highly staining, very dark valued, moderately intense deep red pigment; five manufacturers offer it worldwide..." Handprint goes on to recommend it as a mixture paint to replace A. Crimson.

The problem I have with Pyrlene Maroon is that it is a dull, dark valued pigment, with very strong tinting strength and staining characteristics, which is much further on the color circle toward black than are many of the other reds such as Quin Rose (Permanent Rose) or Quin Magenta. It's this darkness I find hard to work with.

What's wrong with this? The only way to lighten P. Maroon is to dilute it with water, to "tint" it! Or to start with another, much lighter, more saturated paint, and simply use a slight amount of P. Maroon. I'd much rather start with a lighter, more saturated Quin Rose or Quin Magenta, which needs little inherent lightening, but can be darkened if desired with any number of other darkening paints, depending on desired temperature bias--warm or cool.

FWIW, Quin Rose and Quin Magenta are much better for use with warmer yellows and oranges, but equally harmonius with blues.

All of this said, P. Maroon is deservedly popular. If it floats one's boat go for it. A little goes a long, long way. And it's not a panacea.

Sling paint,
Virgil
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:50 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Thanks for caring about these issues as much as I do, everyone! I need to respond to Kay about my own choices for my blue biased red that might replace my much loved PR83.

I did come to the same conclusion as Kay and have been mixing just a tch of Perylene Maroon into my PV19 Permanent Alizarin...

Original Alizarin had a deep, blood red colour in saturation that tinted out (with water) to a beautiful dull pink. I think that the combination of PR179+PV19 is a place to start.

If you have a better suggestion, I'd love to hear it.

Virgil, I don't like Perylene maroon on its own... I agree that it's rather a dull and lifeless deep red. But, I can also admit that I really don't much care for my PV19 on its own, either!
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:13 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Interestingly, according to Handprint (if I understand it correctly), P. Maroon does not exhibit any blue bias. It's just a dull, dark almost neutral red, further in towards black than most other reds except for, Venetian Red. See here: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/cwheel06.pdf

To get a blue bias to a more neutral red, one needs to introduce something that does have a blue bias, ranging from Ultramarine Blue at one extreme of blue perhaps to Q. Magenta or Manganese Violet with a much more subtle blue bias.

IMO, all P. Maroon does is change a saturated color to a darker value, like a darkening neutral for reds, much as Sepia and Indigo are darkening neutrals for other hues.

Still, whatever floats one's boat. So much depends on the subject matter one prefers to paint (portraits, for example, have such a different hue and value range than, say, florals), and of course, one's painterly intent for the painting (realistic, representational, symbolic, non-objective, etc).

A good discussion. Thanks, Char.

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Virgil
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:34 PM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

...but I think that might be the whole purpose of adding a little perylene maroon to the very pink, albeit blue biased, permanent alizarin... I don't know.

Here's what I do know... when painting red florals, original alizarin had a wide value range from deep, rich blood red to pale dull pink. There was a glow about it that no one has been able to recreate. Anthaqrinone Red (PR177) might be close, but I don't have a sample to test it out.

So... in order to go backward and recreate that *look*, we need to substitute something because of lightfast issues. Quin Magenta's bias is just a little too violet IMHO...
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:26 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

I see Daler Rowney sells a Aliz Crimson hue made from PR 209(Quin Red) and PR179(Perylene Maroon).Has anyone tried it?
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Old 04-04-2013, 08:20 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

Good points, Char. Larry's info about Daler Rowney's mixture seems to confirm the idea, using a commercial mix. It will be interesting to see how experience with it turns out. As you say, many of us grew up learning and using A. Crimson, appreciating it's unusually versatile characteristics.

The search continues!

Sling paint,
Virgil

PS: I'm sufficiently convinced about the mixing advantages of P. Maroon, that I think I'll add it to my palette in an effort to expand the use of reds.
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Old 04-04-2013, 09:07 AM
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Re: Is Alizarin Crimson on your basic palette

My nearest dealer for any decent selection of watercolour is Dublin city,about 12miles away,and am just back and no one there has any Daler Rowney Aliz Crimson hue.All have W&N and Daler Rowney Aliz but no hue !I have just gotten an order from Jacksons so it will have to wait until the next order.
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