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Old 04-02-2007, 08:19 AM
MikeN MikeN is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Value is one of the characteristics of color which also include hue and intensity. So they are not saying value is more important then color since value is part of the generalized term "color" Of the three characteristics, value is the most successful in creating the illusion of volume on a two demensional page. You see examples of this every day in black and white prints or photos. Achromatic drawings are very common. Pretty much as simple as that.

I think some of the confusion comes by saying "important" without specifically saying say how it is important. Hue and intensity are very important in other ways such as composition but they do not easily discribe volumes the way that value can.

Mike

Last edited by MikeN : 04-02-2007 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 10:31 AM
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Nehalenia Nehalenia is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Wow, great thread!

What came to my mind was that some 5% of the worlds' population is partially or completely colorblind. For my webdesigns I use a utility (Vischeck ) that simulates the three different types of colorblindness. It never occured to me to use this utility to analyze paintings. So I'm going to experiment now. Let's take the Monet again and see what it looks like through colorblind eyes. Obviously, for the completely colorblind (very rare), this Monet and any other painting using color contrast with similar values doesn't work.

original




deuteranope (red/green deficit)



protanope (another type of red/green deficit)



tritanope (blue/yellow deficit)



I feel that in the second simulation (protanope) especially, the painting looses a lot of its power.
But in all three the boats stand out. So, what does that mean for me as an artist? Hmmm... interesting to think about....

Margreet
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Old 04-02-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: Why is value so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeN
Value is one of the characteristics of color which also include hue and intensity. So they are not saying value is more important then color since value is part of the generalized term "color" Of the three characteristics, value is the most successful in creating the illusion of volume on a two demensional page. You see examples of this every day in black and white prints or photos. Achromatic drawings are very common. Pretty much as simple as that.

I think some of the confusion comes by saying "important" without specifically saying say how it is important. Hue and intensity are very important in other ways such as composition but they do not easily discribe volumes the way that value can.

Mike
Please re-read my first reply to this thread. There should be NO "confusion" by saying important. I very specifically spelled out the usage of the work "important," and why it is the MOST important design element of an artwork.

Value is lightness/darkness, regardless of color.
Color is on an almost even par with Value in the "pecking order" of the elements of Composition and Design, because each is effective in being able to "lead the eye" around a composition. But, in the compositional discussion of the effective usage of the "Basic" elements and principles of composition and design, Value is the most important after Point, because while Color can direct the eye around a work, both forward and back in "visual space," Value provides "depth" within that same space.

I am VERY MUCH saying that Value is more important than color. Even a totally color blind individual can distinguish visual depth to a rendering by Value, as the previous post clearly demonstrates. color cannot make that claim, as the desaturation of many works demonstrates.

And to be a bit more precise, it is not the Values themselves that are important, it is the corresponding "Design Principle" of Contrast that is what determines the "importance" of Value...

Here is a decent little color tutorial explaining Value, although it is referred to as "Tone."
And here is an excellent example of how the contrast of Value can make a large difference to Color.
And this illustration shows how contrast is still "relative..."

~M

Last edited by madster : 04-02-2007 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 05:11 PM
MikeN MikeN is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Mad,

First, my post regarding the word "important" was a response to the post before mine, not yours. Second, VALUE is more important to YOUR purpose/ intent. You have a right to your opinion. It may be easier to create volume and space with value but this doesnt mean that hue and intensity are unable to do the same. It is just less common and more difficult. Furthermore, your statement implies that depth is essential in good design. I believe designs are judged according to how well they serve their intent/purpose. Perfect symmetry for example is not always bad, it has its time and place, as do most other things such as flat design. Also, value is ONE tool used to lead the eye through a piece, but certainly not the only one. With that in mind, "value," or "point" for that matter, are no more important to composition than any other element of design.

As far as the contrast issue is concerned, I am well aware of simultaneous contrast and other examples of how the mind and eye see contextually. After looking at that section of your post for a long while, I have come to guess that you are trying to describe how the illusion of light is not a specific value. (?) This would be true. Even the darkest grey will glow, as if it were the light side of an object, when placed next to black.

In regards to this sentence by you: "A good work is structured on Value, and decorated with Color."

No doubt value can be very beneficial to a deisgn for the reasons you stated. However, the other properties of color such as hue and intensity have a great deal to offer (more then just "decoration"). They can create balance, emphasis, unity, and rhythm, etc, in a design that , might (seemingly) fail in value. BTW, many works fall apart when switched to an achromatic color scheme becuase they were not INTENDED to be seen that way. Many designers use hue and intensity to create sophisticated balancing systems or points of emphasis. Of course they would loose something if you converted them to black and white. In conclusion, contrast is needed, not necessarily VALUE contrast.


Mike

Last edited by MikeN : 04-02-2007 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 04-02-2007, 08:44 PM
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Celeste McCall Celeste McCall is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

HI MIKE
I agree with you on your post above. If color is the 'thing' then values can play second fiddle or spoil the painting. Here is the example according to Skip Lawrence. Hue/color contrasts are diminished, in fact, by strong contrasts of darks and lights. The part that discusses HUE in this pdf explains this.

http://www.thepalettemagazine.com/le...2004_00006.pdf





Hi Margareet,
My brother has colorblindness and he has never seen the color RED. It looks brown to him. Yes, if one is colorblind, then value is very important.


Mike explained this well in his post above.
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Old 04-02-2007, 11:58 PM
MikeN MikeN is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
Please re-read [url=http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5314052&postcount=3]

But, in the compositional discussion of the effective usage of the "Basic" elements and principles of composition and design, Value is the most important after Point, because while Color can direct the eye around a work, both forward and back in "visual space," Value provides "depth" within that same space. ~M

After reading your post again, I have to say I have no idea what you are trying to say here. The last sentence is especially confusing to me. I cant figure out what you mean by ""...both forward and back in "visual space"" vs ""..provide "depth" within that same space". Could you elaborate please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
I am VERY MUCH saying that Value is more important than color. Even a totally color blind individual can distinguish visual depth to a rendering by Value, as the previous post clearly demonstrates. color cannot make that claim, as the desaturation of many works demonstrates.
~M

Im happy that value is most important to you, however I dont subscribe to your opinion. The fact that 5% of the population is unable to differnciate between certain hues and intensities is no reason for me, personally, to stop creating compositional structure with them. My earlier post states why I think your desaturation demonstration is not valid. (#49)


Mike
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:11 AM
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Re: Why is value so important?

I agree, tone and value is important but not always the top priority - it depends ont he artist and the particular work. I don't intend to work out my paintings for the small proportion who won't see them as I intend because of a visual defect.

An artist on a programme this week - I can't remember her name to credit her - said something I liked, She said 'Colour tells us what to feel - tone tells us what to think'.
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Old 04-04-2007, 12:00 AM
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Celeste McCall Celeste McCall is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Once again, Mike, you make perfect sense to me. I agree.



Hi Vhere,
I agree and great post also.
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:45 AM
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Re: Why is value so important?

Agree or disagree, to each their own.
But, there is MORE than enough well documented studies, both scientific, regarding how the human eye and mind work, as well as artisitic, from art historians, great artists (Payne, anyone? among MANY others), and art critiques and teachers of much greater renown than any of us, who have published abstracts, treatises, and BOOKs, who ALL agree that Value is independent of Color, and in an effective compositon, is of more importance.
Those too stubborn to discern the difference are more than welcome to stick with what works for them. No amount of proof will ever make them see...

Those interested in learning, rather than running in the same naive rut, are the artists who can use this information.
While "new," postmodern attitudes regarding the discard of compositional rules, and the dominance of color over value may be "trendy," the human eye still perceives things the same way, and gestalt will still cause the vast majority of humans to see things based upon gestalt.
The rest of this is merely personal color preferences, which are irrelevant to how the eye works in the visual interpretation of an artwork.

I love the sick green smilies. They express a lot more than the plain ol' yellow ones. lol!
~M

Last edited by madster : 04-04-2007 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 11:02 AM
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Re: Why is value so important?

Mike, color can make objects move forward, or recede in space.
More saturated colors move "foreward" in visual space.
"Atmoshperic Perspective" is a very valid example of this.

If you place a saturated color and a more de-saturated color on a blank canvas, the more saturated color will move "forward" in your visual perspective.

That is "moving forward and backward in space."
It does not require any additional colors or values to illustrate.

But, when you start to include value to the composition, the flat color that can move forward and backward in the visual perception, then takes on the additional attribute of Depth, which is something that the eye reacts to from Value.

I will try to get an example up shortly.
~M
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Why is value so important?

This page does a wonderful job of giving an EXCELLENT scientific justification as to why Value is of greater consideration than Color. With some very good illustrations, to boot.

The bottom line here, is that regardless of how people feel about the issue, human anatomy and science have proven how the human eye, and the human mind react to Color and Value. You can argue it until you are green in the smiley face, but that won't change the way things are.

Now, if you are unable to accept this without all the scientific proof, the home page of the above link will give you a fair discussion as to wavelengths, human eye anatomy, and the visual perception of light wavelenghts, and much more. Otherwise, you need to make a "leap of faith," here, and simply accept the fact that it has been proven that "Value is the most important element of a painting."

With that premise clearly established, here is a quick visual to illustrate how color can move foreward (the red, or warmer hue), and backwards (the blue, or cooler hue) in spatial recognition by the human eye. Size and Space, while of consideration, still only affect this effect to a certain point.


But Value Light/Dark, without any consideration to color can affect the visual perception of depth as well as spatial distance.


At this point, you either "get it," or you don't... Maybe you have perceptual problems, maybe you're just too stubborn to accept factual evidence, but regardless, the main perceptual theory propelling this is Contrast, which is the corresponding Principle of Value, not Color, which has the corresponding Principle of Harmony.

As Edgar Payne wrote in the preface to his book, Composition of Outdoor Painting,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgar Payne
The most important ally in the study of painting is the art of thinking.

...In study, theory, or practice, knowledge is undoubtably the keynote to individual thought and originality in painting.
Hopefully, this has cleared any basic misconceptions and confusion.

~M

Last edited by madster : 04-04-2007 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:02 PM
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Re: Why is value so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
Mike, color can make objects move forward, or recede in space.
More saturated colors move "foreward" in visual space.
"Atmoshperic Perspective" is a very valid example of this.

If you place a saturated color and a more de-saturated color on a blank canvas, the more saturated color will move "forward" in your visual perspective.

That is "moving forward and backward in space."
It does not require any additional colors or values to illustrate.

But, when you start to include value to the composition, the flat color that can move forward and backward in the visual perception, then takes on the additional attribute of Depth, which is something that the eye reacts to from Value.

I will try to get an example up shortly.
~M

please do , since this is still unclear. The saturation example is elementary but correct. Also, the "depth" you are referring to is perceptual. Both examples, as far as I can tell, are identical in that manner (both are examples of percieved depth). Until you can articulate this more clearly I will assume it is nonsense.

I have to run to class, but I will respond to your other comments when I return.

Last edited by MikeN : 04-04-2007 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:46 PM
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Celeste McCall Celeste McCall is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
Agree or disagree, to each their own.
But, there is MORE than enough well documented studies, both scientific, regarding how the human eye and mind work, as well as artisitic, from art historians, great artists (Payne, anyone? among MANY others), and art critiques and teachers of much greater renown than any of us, who have published abstracts, treatises, and BOOKs, who ALL agree that Value is independent of Color, and in an effective compositon, is of more importance.
Those too stubborn to discern the difference are more than welcome to stick with what works for them. No amount of proof will ever make them see...

Those interested in learning, rather than running in the same naive rut, are the artists who can use this information.
While "new," postmodern attitudes regarding the discard of compositional rules, and the dominance of color over value may be "trendy," the human eye still perceives things the same way, and gestalt will still cause the vast majority of humans to see things based upon gestalt.
The rest of this is merely personal color preferences, which are irrelevant to how the eye works in the visual interpretation of an artwork.

I love the sick green smilies. They express a lot more than the plain ol' yellow ones. lol!
~M

Madster, where in the Gestalt 'theory' does it say that value contrast is more important to the human eye than color contrast?

Have your read Margaret Livingstone's book.... "Vision and Art - The Biology of Seeing"? Modern science is proving just the opposite of what you are saying, here, Madster. Her ground breaking studies of the eye prove the first 3 stages in visual information processing. She talks about the What sytem and the where system of primates. The 'where system' being the motion part and the 'what system' being high contrast sensitivity.

According to her, the acuity of the 'what system' is only 2 or 3 factors above the 'where system' in primates. She states further that the 'where system' (includes color perception) in humans is similar to the entire visual system of lower mammals.

The more color blind that a person is, the more that color selectivity slows, and these individuals have a high acuity for low contrast sensitivity.

Madster, is it possible that your quoting of science is shortsighted because they don't include all current information? 'Trendy' you call it......? Try telling Margaret Livingstone that her science is 'trendy'. She is a colleague of David Hubel....Nobel Prize winning David Hubel who writes the forward in her book. Margaret Livingstone is a Harvard Neurophysiologist.

She states in her book, "I have never had the least doubt that given two hours I could make anyone with a good high-school education fully aware of the main accomplishments of the last half-century of visual science."

Her book makes it easy for anyone to understand these scientific facts about neurophysiology of the eye. I would suggest that you get 'trendy' and read her scientific book if you'd like to quote current science on the eyes. Perhaps then you could understand what Mike is talking about here.
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:04 PM
MikeN MikeN is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
This

The bottom line here, is that regardless of how people feel about the issue, human anatomy and science have proven how the human eye, and the human mind react to Color and Value. You can argue it until you are green in the smiley face, but that won't change the way things are.

Now, if you are unable to accept this without all the scientific proof, the home page of the above link will give you a fair discussion as to wavelengths, human eye anatomy, and the visual perception of light wavelenghts, and much more. Otherwise, you need to make a "leap of faith," here, and simply accept the fact that it has been proven that "Value is the most important element of a painting." ~M

Mad,

I am very familiar with handprint. It's author has plenty to say about the science of the eye and light. However factual that information may be, he enters the realm of opinion when he implies it is the most important element in painting *for everyone*. Please keep in mind, POTENTIALLY dominant does not necessarily equate to "most important". Essentially we are talking the difference between mindlessly following formula vs truly thoughtfull innovation. Personally I have faith in the artist. THEY shape and control the viewer's perceptions according to THEIR intent. In that regard, I try to refrain from making such limiting or narrow statements as "most important" unless I am very specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
With that premise clearly established, here is a quick visual to illustrate how color can move foreward (the red, or warmer hue), and backwards (the blue, or cooler hue) in spatial recognition by the human eye. Size and Space, while of consideration, still only affect this effect to a certain point.

But Value Light/Dark, without any consideration to color can affect the visual perception of depth as well as spatial distance.


As I said, I decide which is most usefull or important in my work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
At this point, you either "get it," or you don't... Maybe you have perceptual problems, maybe you're just too stubborn to accept factual evidence, but regardless, the main perceptual theory propelling this is Contrast, which is the corresponding Principle of Value, not Color, which has the corresponding Principle of Harmony.M


A couple things: First, you description at the end of this post is as muddy as your earlier spatial description. "Contrast" emcompasses more then value or color for that matter. Second, You may not see or agree with my view on these issues. It matters little to me. I dont respond to your posts for you specifically. However, it would be nicer if you would agree to disagree without the condescending innuendos. They are very insulting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madster
As Edgar Payne wrote in the preface to his book, Composition of Outdoor Painting,Hopefully, this has cleared any basic misconceptions and confusion.

~M

I guess this quote by Payne means you think Im lacking considerably in knowledge? I have stated in other places in WC that I come here to share and learn. Things that I feel make sense, I absorb. Things that dont make sense, regardless of the aurthor, I disregard. This quote however, feels more like it was posted by ego.

Mike

Last edited by MikeN : 04-04-2007 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:20 PM
MikeN MikeN is offline
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Re: Why is value so important?

Great post Celeste! I will be checking on this read tonight

Mike

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