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Old 07-05-2019, 02:10 AM
Rojo pagoda Rojo pagoda is offline
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Question W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Hi everyone, new to the board I have a (Duh!) burnt sienna question:
I currently have a made in china Cotman burnt sienna, which is an orange brown and also a made in england 1970´s Cotman bs, which is an intense brown red shade with a beautyful yellow orange light and I was wondering, why are these two burnt sienna so different?? The chinese one is made with PR101 but I there is no pigment info on the old english one, anybody knows which pigment was used back in the 70's, maybe PBr7?

The thing is, I'm looking for the W & N professional version of these. I was thinking in getting burnt sienna PR 101 to replace the cotman and brown ochre PBr7 hoping to get a similar hue to the old burnt sienna. what do you think?

I'll upload swatches photos to compare soon. If there's already a thread with this info, sorry and please share the link!
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Old 07-05-2019, 04:32 AM
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Hi Rojo, welcome to the forum.

I am not a paint connoisseur, I use W&N Burnt Sienna myself, I find other brands are not the same. I'm not familiar with Brown Ochre I'm afraid, but someone will be along who is.

Doug
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:45 AM
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Most brands of burnt sienna are manufactured from PBr7, a brown earth. Winsor & Newton chose to make their version from PR101 which is red iron oxide. The difference is visually interesting. I keep both versions on my palette because they mix with other colours differently and I like them each for that reason.
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:03 AM
indraneel indraneel is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

The original PBr burnt sienna is darker, I think more manganese stuff in it, and much less tinting. It also looks better on its own, irregular grains, and mixes a more neutral gray. I do not use it much since it seems to be easily overpowered by modern pigments.

New PR101 burnt siennas are just attempts to get the real thing, which I think is a dis-service to both the iron oxide and the burnt sienna. It prevents one from getting the versatility of the iron oxide and fails to deliver the characteristics of burnt sienna.

I do not have burnt sienna on my palette, unless I am doing something that calls for the real thing. Instead, I have an orange iron oxide. This really is different from burnt sienna, more chroma, and much higher tinting. It also mixes a much stronger dark, although it may or may not be truly neutral. The color is very similar to low temperature terracotta, which is abundant in my part of the world, which has iron rich soil. The color is also similar to modern sunburnt tiles and such, since they use the same pigment. I've never been to Italy so can't comment on the local colors there. In painting, it is important to choose a color that is relevant to where you are at, rather than where other painters have been.

I make my colors from powder, and iron oxide is readily available at most places.
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Old 07-07-2019, 03:45 AM
snowsilk snowsilk is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Jane Blundell (as always) has an amazing comparison of the different types of Burnt Sienna: https://janeblundellart.blogspot.com...nt-sienna.html

Major differences by brand. Pick your favorite!

The same pigment can yield v different colors and qualities with different brands. More excuse to get more paint tubes 😂
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Old 07-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

I don't remember what year it was, but I've seen in mentioned here that Winsor and Newton actually did switch from their previous supply of PBr7 burnt sienna to the current PR101 sometime back in maybe the 70s. Something about the old source running low.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:08 PM
jyaan jyaan is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

I would not expect brown ochre to be a match. In my experience, it's akin to a darker, greyer raw sienna. If it was the burnt sienna previously mined in France, then mayhaps the Sennelier (or Jackson's) burnt sienna be what you're looking for. They obtain theirs from the historical mine located there.

Last edited by jyaan : 07-10-2019 at 04:17 PM.
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Old 07-11-2019, 08:12 AM
Nessamelda Nessamelda is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow_oxide
I don't remember what year it was, but I've seen in mentioned here that Winsor and Newton actually did switch from their previous supply of PBr7 burnt sienna to the current PR101 sometime back in maybe the 70s. Something about the old source running low.
I’ve got the remains of a pan of WN artists burnt Sienna from a 1977 box that I got for my 16 th birthday. Comparing it to the modern Burnt Sienna from the WN travel box I bought a couple of years ago it’s a lot less orange and granulated like crazy. So yes they definitely did change the formula at some point. (I don’t use burnt sienna much, obviously! Most of the other colours have long been replaced)

Last edited by Nessamelda : 07-11-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 07-14-2019, 04:43 AM
Rojo pagoda Rojo pagoda is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Thanks for your answers!
The Jane Blundell chart rocks! I think it would be more like the M Graham swatch.
I've found this at the W n' N site: "Until 1988 Winsor & Newton bought sienna pigments with a beautiful bright undertone from a mine south of Sienna, the mine was closed. As a result we bought the remaining stocks which lasted up to 1991. After this, there were no potential suppliers of siennas with the same bright undertone; however, transparent synthetic iron oxides had already been on the market for some time. These were evaluated and found to have the same transparent undertone, closely matching old standards, especially in water colour and are used today." heres the link http://www.winsornewton.com/na/disco...ight-on-sienna
So as jyaan posted, Sennelier might be worth trying.
In any case, after reading the W n' N article, I'm keeping my 1970´s Cotman BS, meanwhile I'll be looking for a replacement for when it wears down, so that J. Blundell chart turns really useful!
Thanks to everyone and I must say you have build a lovely community here, cheers to you all!

P.S. There are never enough reasons to stop buying paint tubes XD
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:26 PM
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cliftonprince cliftonprince is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

ORIGINAL USE OF WORD
-- burnt sienna -- a color, in the reddish-brown range, probably originally based on a tradition, from the Italian Renaissance and before, of a particular (probably iron oxide oriented) pigment in a soil mined in the area of the city of Sienna and prepared with a burning procedure. The color could vary widely, but the behavior of the pigment in the making of paints (which were generally mixed by the artist or his staff in his own studio) and, therefore, to some degree, in the using of paints to paint paintings, would be reliably consistent.
-- brown ochre -- another color, in the reddish-brown range, probably originally based on a tradition, from well before any written historical records, of a particular reddish, brownish or yellowish color in clumps of earth which contained certain materials (which we now know to be, and to have been, iron oxides and similar minerals), used as a pigment. The color could vary widely, but the staining action of the operative oxide mineral within the soil would be consistently useful for pigment purposes, in such applications as body adornment, cave-wall decoration, and ritual sacrifices.

MODERN PAINT
-- burnt sienna, brown ochre -- something vaguely red to brown, of any dang color hue-angle intensity chromaticity and value, made with any dang pigment or two or three, with any dang recipe and any dang level of concentration or purity, as chosen arbitrarily by the manufacturer; said choices (of color, recipe, concentration, purity) based as much on advertising and sales intentions, as on artistic fidelity for color and use.

Jane Blundell's useful chart (linked above) indicates (if I counted correctly) six paints which use PBr7, four with PR101, two with the mineral (not an ASTM numbered pigment!) Hematite, one with PBr6, and one (very surprising) with PO48. Pigments PBr6, PB7, and PR101, and the mineral Hematite, are all iron oxides. PO48, Quinacridone Orange, is a modern synthetic organic pigment with no metals in it, except perhaps as additives or in spinel formulation.

In other words, the claim that any given paint is in fact "Burnt Sienna" or "Brown Ochre" as printed on the tube's label means almost nothing, except that the marketing department wants you to associate your impending purchase with the notion of being able to paint like an Italian Renaissance master. Or a caveman.

Next we will discuss Van Dyke Brown ...
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Last edited by cliftonprince : 07-15-2019 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:08 AM
Rojo pagoda Rojo pagoda is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

@cliftonprince
I guess the final judge will always be: which one is more useful to me.
I have to say both W & N pr101 and ye old Cotman are useful to me, so, I'm just gonna check some swatches, hopefully at the store they'll have some real ones and make a choice, cos' as you mention, each brand names the tube as they want, Holbein raw sienna is PY43 https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/ima...s/confused.gif
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Old 07-17-2019, 04:20 AM
jyaan jyaan is offline
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyaan
I would not expect brown ochre to be a match. In my experience, it's akin to a darker, greyer raw sienna. If it was the burnt sienna previously mined in France, then mayhaps the Sennelier (or Jackson's) burnt sienna be what you're looking for. They obtain theirs from the historical mine located there.

Correction: although similar pigments are reportedly mined in France, the Sennelier burnt Sienna is obtained from Italy (according to their pigment brochure). Looking at Jane Blundell's blog, it does seem that Sennelier burnt Sienna is indeed a good match for the old Winsor & Newton burnt Sienna (assuming that the 1890 W&N color was the same sort as yours, and that the color I see on my monitor is accurate). The Sennelier burnt Sienna I own does indeed have an orange glow akin to a transparent orange/red iron oxide.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:59 PM
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Re: W & N Burnt sienna or brown ochre??

I under stand that Brown Ochre is found in iron deposits nearly worldwide and is known as Goethite. That is the way Daniel Smith sells it as Goethite - Brown Ochre. I think of it as Burnt Yellow Ochre. I find it a confidence color useful in painting wood and rocks in landscapes along with Brown Madder. However Burnt Sienna is my standard go to color.
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