Does Anatomy matter to you in life drawing ????

[treeshark]

Quote Alvaro, "If you think using your intellect is the answer in painting, you're . Painting is intuitive. It cannot be learned mechanically. Painting is about capturing the intrinsic side of life, with it's mood and feeling. There are no shortcuts and no formula. Painting is based on insight and perception, not logic. If the painting lacks ambience, it is worthless. The mood is the only creative side of representational art. The painting has to have magic to it. Search for the surprising element of the day. Paintings shouldn't be "pleasant" or "pretty"; they have to have GUTS. If we try to just copy nature and be illustrators, nature will beat us every time. We need to look deeper than that."

I come across this again and again. As if we have two different bits of us one lo gical the other intuitive... I call them Spock and Kirk!
This is nonsense as far as I can see. We are not divided up we are thoroughly blended! It maybe useful to divide aspects of a mind up for theoretical or philosophical purpose but that does not make such division a reality. It is also cruel I feel for experienced artists to teach that beginners have to set themselves free and just express themselves and all will be well. This is not the case as all the not quite Alvaro clones show. The ability to paint and draw freely with expression is reached as with any skill by being stiff and over considered at first. We all start that way. Then as the routines are embedded through repetition more and more can be done without conscious calculation. This brings about the appearance of freedom that beginners crave, but that is the whole point of drawings it is just an appearance. They are a lie on paper, convincing the mind to assess them as a body or a person not as they really are merely a bit of carefully dirtied paper.
Alvaro is peddling what I feel is an art establishment myth that art comes from emotion as the driver and any skill is merely a mechanical and relatively unimportant. Whereas I would feel that art is made by both aspects working in perfect and equal union. He also repeats the slight against illustrators that was thought up to justify the theories of modernism in the fifties. Before the end of the 19th century all art was illustration. You would not apply the "just" put down to Michelangelo, so why is it ok to apply it to today's illustrators.
I'd best stop ranting now and do some painting!
Rob

[Clive Green]

I have to agree with Rob. The motivation to draw, paint, or sculpt comes from many places and is internalised - we (the artists) are driven to art. The skills needed to apply paint and define form must be learned, unlike mercy they do not fall as the gentle rain from heaven (pax Mr Shakespeare). A knowledge of anatomy, preferably from observation and practice, enables an artist not only to recreate a more believable character in paint or stone but also to introduce distortions in the form that have an expressive nature.

For example El Greco's attenuated figures (like those of Modigliani or the faceted portraits of the cubists) are recognisable and stirring because they are based on a solid knowledge not only of technique and form but on the nature of the viewers vision.

Yes - a study of anatomy by observation is essential.

[Clive Green]

ps Michaelangelo's figures are based on fine drawings of the figure and observations of character and type (as we know from what sketches remain) but in few of his paintings and sculptures are we shown an accurate representation of the form of a human being. Distortion abounds in the service of art.

[Indiana Kate]

We are in deep waters. I teach philosophy at a university and Rob has aptly described one philosophic position on the relationship between experience and knowledge. The current fad (yes, there are fads in philosophy) is to side with Rob. I've agreed with the position Rob describes since long before it was a fad. I've read thousands of pages on this, Rob, so PM me if you want a reference!

Kate

[Sonni]

No Sandra, I am not saying that. If we just use our memory, why bother to look at the model when we draw? Also, if we can draw a good likeness from memory, imagine what could be done with a live model in front of us.

[Sonni]

"I have to agree with Rob. The motivation to draw, paint, or sculpt comes from many places and is internalised - we (the artists) are driven to art."

Ah, yes. Motivation. It comes from different sources. But what motivation does a kid of seven have? Might it not have begun internally, rather than having been internalized from the kid's environment? I loved to draw at a very young age, as did other artists I've talked to. Circumstances around growing up are varied, but in my case I had no exposure to art of any kind, no encouragement. My earliest memory of "stick figures" so often found in pre and early school environments was that people didn't look like that.

I know plenty of people who are not "thoroughly blended." I know artists who, are aware of their "intuitive (as in subconscious) " side and aware of their conscious mind. Harley Brown describes this when he says his conscious mind decides what is to be done in a painting, and then much is left to the unconscious. To me this makes sense. It also takes discipline. I guess I would have to agree with Alvaro as I don't think he ignores the importance of discipline and understands what really makes a work of art.

[kevinwueste]

The highest order of work - or effort - I believe that delivers in drawing or painting is our ability to problem solve. I side my thinking that this is an analytical activity. Not a single artist/teacher that I have had is not constantly analyzing how to develop a shape, a form or a tonality. In demos, they talk about it as they draw and paint. To be more clear, they all do this - perhaps I have self-selected this type of artist as my guide(s). That could be true. But I do believe that at our highest skill level - the "feel" of intuitive work happens so much more readily than when intuition must be prevailed upon too much.

Bias: I teach anatomy to my figure students every day and I believe that knowledge underlying the forms and shapes serves our ability to execute well in drawing or painting people ( or animals ).

Kevin

[lovin art]

Thanks Sonni for explaining that ....

I Humbly agree with the very wonderful Guy above me ...;-)... And this comes to my mind also just as random thoughts ~~ they say the likes of Michelangelo was a genius , but that doesn't mean he didn't have a stragitgiety or basic sound ,knowledge of structure to his thought process as he did , that's just fact .... and food for thought or is that ... Yeah !!!

Mac I liked the stolen thoughts .. ..pretty sneaky .... Ha I love it ~ them !!!

[treeshark]

Originally Posted by Sonni

I know plenty of people who are not "thoroughly blended." I know artists who, are aware of their "intuitive (as in subconscious) " side and aware of their conscious mind. Harley Brown describes this when he says his conscious mind decides what is to be done in a painting, and then much is left to the unconscious.

You can't I think be conscious of either consciousness or unconsciousness. Consciousness or self awareness happens after the event as a sort of diary of events, it is not the event itself. So really the workings of you and I are all unconscious.
What awareness does do when drawing is supply feedback to the continuing processes that are creating the drawing. So you observe the model, a decision as to a possible action is formed, that decision is in a beginner passed on to awareness, then reconsidered and then the mark is made. All "new" activities are done by a similar process. Once this process has been done many many times, creating they say pathways in the brain, then the referral to the self aware function is no longer needed.
Simple activities become completely automated, such as making a coffee in the morning, we are able to carry out the actions required and carry on the pleasant shuffle of dreams and fancies we call consciousness at the same time. Amusingly if this process goes awry we gaze in astonishment as the conscious part reports back that we have just poured the water into the sugar!
Life drawing or art is too complex to be entirely internalised, but essentially the aim is to develop routines that carry out a lot of he work as there are so many variables that conscious consideration is impossible. One of the most important of these routines and the hardest to learn are the ones that translate and winnow what we see into a set of marks on paper that will successfully communicate to a viewer. The processes that produce this derivation from the real we tend to call "intuitive" because we can't follow how we did it. So when we look at our drawing we go, "How did I do that!" and if we are skilled or just lucky others do the same and ascribe us superhuman talents.
Alvaro according to a painter who was with him was painting in Scotland. But apparently he just could not get to grips with the subtleties of the mountain scenery in dull light. With none of the strong contrasts he is used to he struggled to paint. Yet when he painted a scene in a restaurant later in the day he produced a stunner. If it is all coming from some magical "intuitive" well then how did it come up dry in the mountains? I would say because the learnt routines in a painter as narrowly focussed as Alvaro work brilliantly on familiar ground, but outside that he must as we all do go back to the learning process.

This is why I feel life drawing is so very important because it is a way we have found to train up the dumb puppy that resides in our heads to do the most amazing and inspirational tricks. It is one thing that I have found that makes you grow in ability more than anything else. Its lessons enrich I think any artistic endeavour abstract or not.
@Kate, oh no a real philosopher reading my meanderings! I am slightly suffering at present as I am re reading all the philosophy that I thought I understood as a callow youth, but I find now that I dont understand it far better than I didnt understand it then.
Rob

[Indiana Kate]

You're making progress, Rob! Absolutely!

Kate

[lovin art]

Ron ..... . I like you said that about the life drawing thing ..They are good , good thoughts .. I go every possible chance I get to at night mostly ..... I'm not learning school stuff ATM I'm on a downer real bad ditching all but the ldrawing ATM .... And in my own mind I feel that at least I'm still internalizing and thinking of what it takes to keep thinking of logic structure , form and tone .... Well trying too at least ....

Rough waters ....thanks I've left the building , it's been real !

[michaelneverstops]

Hi Sandra,

I haven't read the variety of replies, but I would only say that every little bit helps. In drawing from life, I believe Sargent said something along the lines that nothing but perfect observation was needed. Theoretically, that is true. But the better you know the anatomy, the more informed your decisionmaking can be. Unless you have a decade to do nothing but hone your sight, studying anatomy is a great way to make informed drawing decisions. I would say it's not crucial, not as crucial as visual measuring or an understanding of value, but it is very very helpful.

Hope you're doing well and working hard!

[lovin art]

Hiya Michael ..... You know what you made me smile reading your thoughts about having a decade to do nothing but draw and learn ....well guess what IM that girl then , cause I've got nothing else on my mind but being the best drawing female artist you have ever seen ..... I'm steping up the pace .....but find the down time hard ..... I'm told (not Sargents words but just as great ) another great artist the name slips me ) that even when your not drawing or painting , just doing something as mundane as gessoing prepping for painting .... Is good as your still in the act of doing and thinking towards work .... And it's the same for me as to thinking anatomy I'm constantly trying to think and mor so the more I draw .... I hate looking at my work ..... But I figure it's when I'm in this down on myself hate mood which ATM is compounded by things out of my control lately , that Im still learning .... It's the days it all starts to go right that are really scary for me , cause then it's like I've got to start digging down deep inside my soul - to keep proving to myself , I've got what it really takes ..... Here's to you for the gracious thoughts , I appreciate them muchly ...