The trouble with charcoal… - WetCanvas: Online Living for Artists

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May 9, 2018 at 9:22 am #455815
earlselwyn
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So I started my first charcoal drawing last night. I kinda got my butt kicked. A few valuable lessons were learned. First, make sure to use paper with Texture or tooth. The charcoal won’t stick to smooth paper very well. Second, keep your charcoal sharp. Third, listen to your instructor. Duh.

This drawing was three hours of struggle. -E

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
May 9, 2018 at 9:26 am #619704
DavidHH Guide, Figure Forum
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I love to experiment with all sorts of media. Charcoal is difficult at first but great for smudging about and getting messy fingers. Try the compressed charcoal pencils Earl, much easier to use

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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May 9, 2018 at 9:31 am #619663
tiago.dagostini
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In fact charcoal stick very well to smooth paper, but it cannot be satinated. A good example is newsprint paper. It holds charcoal perfectly (in fact it would probably the best surface for charcoal if it was not so fragile )

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
May 9, 2018 at 10:13 am #619671
earlselwyn
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“In fact charcoal stick very well to smooth paper”

Tiago- Not in my experience. I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I am using vine charcoal. I couldn’t get the powder to stick to the paper no matter how hard I applied. -E

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
May 9, 2018 at 10:29 am #619705
DavidHH Guide, Figure Forum
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I cant stand vine charcoal Earl, compressed is so much easier to work with, Tiago what do you mean by satinate?

Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art - Leonardo da Vinci
More than happy to receive C&C on anything I post
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May 10, 2018 at 6:09 am #619664
tiago.dagostini
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”In fact charcoal stick very well to smooth paper”

Tiago- Not in my experience. I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. I am using vine charcoal. I couldn’t get the powder to stick to the paper no matter how hard I applied. -E

Just try it.. newsprint paper.. it is smooth, the cheapest of all papers and the prime paper used to teach charcoal drawing on the first half of 20th century.

It lays into the paper better than you can belief, yes you can remove the charcoal from the paper with a rubbing towel. For someone LEARNING it is perfect. It is not a paper for a finished work although.

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
May 10, 2018 at 6:18 am #619665
tiago.dagostini
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I cant stand vine charcoal Earl, compressed is so much easier to work with, Tiago what do you mean by satinate?

People mix the smothness as the cause of particulated not sticking to the paper. The issue is more complex than that. The thing that holds the particulated like charcoal in the paper is the effective specific surface of the paper.

You can have a paper of 1m by 1m and it will have 1 sq meter of area, but the specific surface is much higher. If you follow the surface at microscopic level you get a larger area, that is the specific surface, that is when dense enough what holds a strong electrical charge that enable the paper to hold the charcoal (no it is not the tooth itself that makes the particulated stick, the mechanical tooth grip is just an extra).

Now a paper feel smooth when its irregularities are small on amplitude (height) but that does not mean they do not have a high specific surface. You can have lots lots of tiny tiny irregularities in a very dense pattern (example newsprint) that have larger specific surface than a few large irregularities (example canson montval). These tiny irregularities are perfect for holding different potential electric charge….

Satinated paper on other hand is pressed at high temperatures and “melts” the outer fibers in a surface that is really flat almost like a glass. Not only the irregularities are very small, but they almost do not exist and they are too far from each other to hold an electrical charge. That makes nearly impossible for the paper to hold heavy particulated like charcoal. (Example bristol plate)

"no no! You are doing it all wrong, in the internet we are supposed to be stubborn, inflexible and arrogant. One cannot simply be suddenly reasonable and reflexive in the internet, that breaks years of internet tradition as a medium of anger, arrogance, bigotry and self entitlement. Damm these internet newcomers being nice to to others!!!"

"If brute force does not solve your problem, then you are not using enough!"
May 10, 2018 at 9:30 am #619672
earlselwyn
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I’ll try it. -E

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
May 10, 2018 at 4:04 pm #619651
ArtistOz
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Thanks for information on paper surfaces and charcoal Tiago.dagostini.

Earl are you back at school? I don’t know what you are whinging about you are ahead of the game than most people. I realize you know you can do better so if you don’t like do it again until it works to your satisfaction.

Bill,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artistoz/
Instagram, billwperry
May 10, 2018 at 4:33 pm #619673
earlselwyn
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Bill- the previous post was offered as a caution against using the wrong paper with charcoal. I’m not happy with the drawing. yes back in studio. thanks for the encouragement… I think. I’m drawing same pose tonight but I’ll be using hard nitram on mi tientes. Will post results later. -Earl

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
May 10, 2018 at 10:26 pm #619666
Constance
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Earl, I started off with willow/vine charcoal on smooth surface and I actually loved it – still do, but I don’t think it’s good for me as a beginner in figure drawing as this medium made me lazy and focussed too much on shadows and light.

When I changed to the compressed charcoal (Charcoal pencil), I ‘study’ better…

Instagram: unsuspectingstrangers
May 11, 2018 at 12:18 am #619661
123harry
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A solid start to your charcoal career even if the arms are a bit odd….
I haven’t used charcoal a lot. Plenty of information in this discussion, I’m making notes! I guess experimentation and patience are the way forward as always.

C&C always welcome.
Instagram harry.hamill
May 11, 2018 at 1:11 pm #619674
earlselwyn
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Thanks Harry and Constance for the input.

This is Nitram on 140lb watercolor paper. I was able to get the charcoal to stick a bit better but I’m still struggling to control it. This drawing is a bit larger than usual (about 18″). I think that contributed to the proportion issues. It can only get better. -Earl

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
May 11, 2018 at 7:51 pm #619652
ArtistOz
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I’ve never used Nitram charcoal looking forward to acquiring some. “It can only get better.” I like your positive mindset.

I have a problem with the model’s right arm if indeed it is her arm as it could be someone else’s poking its way into the picture. As it is, it looks like its growing out of her shoulder somewhere. I think what kills the illusion is the pectoral muscle should be indicating the pull of the muscle upwards. If you erased that arm altogether it would look logically as if it was behind the shoulder and going around her back to clasp the left hand you see what I mean? I know in the real not everything we see makes visual sense specially when we record it.

Bill,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/artistoz/
Instagram, billwperry
May 12, 2018 at 12:47 pm #619675
earlselwyn
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Bill,

Regarding Nitram – it’s pretty much the favorite of the more advanced artists/students at my school. Also favored by the likes of Liberace and Cesar Santos among others. Is it worthy of the hype? I don’t know yet. One of the few criticisms I’ve heard and experienced is that there will be inconsistencies in each peace… there will be hard spots and soft spots. So much so that many fellow students will use cheaper soft vine charcoal for shading and rendering. I’d love to hear your opinion once you’ve had a chance to use.

Regarding your comments about the drawing… I think they’re all valid. This was a one night pose so I was working as quickly as possible. I kinda failed on the basics. Which isn’t unusual but I usually have time to make corrections. Proportions are screwy, shadow shapes didn’t really map right, and I still can’t control the medium. Considering that I will be using only charcoal for at least the next year, I can only improve. For now, I plan to use this drawing and the previous one for kindling on my next camping trip to New Mexico.

As always, thanks for your input.

-Earl

instagram.com/earlselwyn/
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