Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum Artograph Tracer or Projector for photorealism?

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  • #994506
    Artist1987
    Default

        Hi

        I wanted to paint photorealism and did not want to use grids for transfering the image onto canvas.
        Besides, i did not want to invest 500 Euro for the latest artograph projector.
        They have the cheaper model that costs about 80 or 60 dollars.
        It is called Artograph tracer and was built before projectors for computers became cheaper.
        The projector i wanted to use is this one:
        https://www.amazon.de/Flylinktech-Projector-Multimedia-Projektor-AV-Eingang/dp/B00UCQW1BI/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1477164557&sr=8-12&keywords=flylinktech

        Would you recommend a projector connected to a personal computer or would you recommend the Artograph tracer?

        The problem in my case is that i want to paint on canvases with height 90 cm and width 60 cm.

        And the flylinktech-projector projects width 90 cm and height 60 cm due to home cinema use.Relatively wide compared to thei height of the image.

        Can you satisfactorily change the size of the projected image by moving the projector closer to the wall?

        Thanks

        #1259169
        WFMartin
        Default

            Hi

            I wanted to paint photorealism and did not want to use grids for transfering the image onto canvas.
            Besides, i did not want to invest 500 Euro for the latest artograph projector.
            They have the cheaper model that costs about 80 or 60 dollars.
            It is called Artograph tracer and was built before projectors for computers became cheaper.
            The projector i wanted to use is this one:
            [url]https://www.amazon.de/Flylinktech-Projector-Multimedia-Projektor-AV-Eingang/dp/B00UCQW1BI/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1477164557&sr=8-12&keywords=flylinktech[/url]

            Would you recommend a projector connected to a personal computer or would you recommend the Artograph tracer?

            The problem in my case is that i want to paint on canvases with height 90 cm and width 60 cm.

            And the flylinktech-projector projects width 90 cm and height 60 cm due to home cinema use.Relatively wide compared to thei height of the image.

            Can you satisfactorily change the size of the projected image by moving the projector closer to the wall?

            Thanks

            This projector appears as though it should work fine for projecting from a transparency (color slide); however, I don’t believe it will project from a reflective piece of copy (such as a photo). I’m not sure about that, because I cannot read all that German. I don’t know about you, but about 99% of the reference pieces from which I work are reflective surfaces, rather than transparencies.

            The size of any projected image can be changed (enlarged to a greater, or lesser extent) by moving the projector further from, or closer to the projected surface. As you move the projector closer to the canvas, the intensity of the projected image increases, and as you move it back, the intensity decreases.

            The larger the projected image, the less illumination it exhibits, the softer the edges of the subject, and the more susceptible the image is to slight movements of the projector.

            wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
            https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

            #1259180
            Coastal
            Default

                A million years ago I bought the artograph tracer.
                The projected image was so faint that I never used it.
                I think the bulb strength is what determines a quality projection.
                So with my limited experience with it I think the cheaper models are more toy than decent photo projection equipment.

                #1259190
                Artist1987
                Default

                    thanks to both of you.

                    I do not need a super-correct color projection.

                    Would you generally think that the flylinktech projector would be better than the artograph tracer?
                    I thought that you can easily project jpegs with a usb-stick nowadays.

                    The problem with the artograph is that you need to print every image in smaller size (5 times 5 inches).
                    However i think that the artograph might be better for the smaller canvas-sizes i intend to use.

                    #1259191
                    Artist1987
                    Default

                        i forgot:
                        The flylinktech-projector says minimum 20 inch diagonal.
                        So i wondered if any users have experience whether computer-connected projectors are useful in that regard.

                        I thought that the artograph tracer comes from a time ,other projectors were far more expensive

                        #1259185
                        JCannon
                        Default

                            I used a projector often back when I was an illustrator. They can be helpful, but I did not rely on them as often as people thought. The quality of the projected image is not high, and of course your hand gets in the way. Expect straight lines to be slightly off. Or maybe NOT so slightly.

                            Here’s another trick: Use a photocopier to enlarge your reference photo or drawing, then use graphite (pencil) on the obverse side to transfer outlines to your working surface.

                            I’m not terribly proud of these tricks, but I worked for Art Directors who would say things like: “You wanna know your deadline? I want it done by the time I finish this sentence.”

                            #1259187

                            The Tracer doesn’t have a UBS connection. You put a photo/picture in the “little” door and it reflects it on to the wall/canvas. I had the next version up and it was a pain unless you also bought the upgrade lens that you twisted in and out.

                            I also have an overhead project. I used that for murals. I made my drawing and then used a printer to print this out on a transparency sheet. This also needed to be rolled around on a cart to line things up…it worked ok, but is heavy and bulky.

                            I agree that Autograph modern day projectors are extremely overpriced…but it works with the computer and also uses UBS sticks. In the US these run between $355-$700-$1400. There are built in grid patterns. For this kind of money there should be a telephoto lense, but NO there isn’t. Again, this must be moved around. The do have a function to level/adjust out the photo/art/drawing for the image on the support. Just be sure that your support is not at an angle as this will distort your image on the support.

                            I used the grid method with perforations and pouncing when I first began murals…too much paper and it could takes days to get the entire drawing on a wall or canvas. For smaller canvas the methods Bill Martin and Cannon suggested are quicker and work well. Check out Bill’s “Blooming” on the WIP and you will see a beautiful example of the method he mentioned.

                            Angel :angel:
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                            #1259198
                            Nomad Z
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                                I’ve got one of the types that projects a printed image. Not sure what make it is (had it for years). There’s a sticker inside, about lamp types, that has “The Daylight Company” on it. It uses a low wattage bulb and has a lens that slides in and out for focus. I use it for drawing the outlines of an image that I want to copy.

                                It does work, but the image is very dim – it really needs to be used at night or in conditions very close to a photographic dark room. Aside from the dimness, the size of the source image needs to be within certain limits or the projector won’t see it all – you need to work out the max area and print it to fit. The other hassle is that you need to print it (a hassle if your printer is like mine, which is non-functional). The max size of source image is pretty small, like 2″ square or thereabouts, so most images from books are going to be too large.

                                I have also used the projector on top of a laptop screen laid flat on a table – the projector’s lamp is off and illumination comes from the screen. The image to be copied needed to be manipulated to get enough contrast for the projection to be reasonably clear. Easy enough to resize on the screen. The image was still very dim, though (possibly slightly dimmer than projecting from a printed image).

                                The type linked to above that connect to a computer look like cheapo versions of the projectors that are used in offices and the like for giving presentations. The main thing I noticed in the specs is that they are low resolution, and potentially quite low output. I can’t say whether they’d be brighter than the basic reflected surface type of projector. If they were, then I think they could have potential for painting use – the resolution is probably too low for watching movies or whatever, but could be fine as a thing that gets an image projected with enough detail to lay in outlines with minimal fuss.

                                #1259184
                                Moqui Steps
                                Default

                                    Here is the process I have ended up using the most to transfer images to the art surface. I was typing this up for another use but figured I might as well post it here.

                                    I don’t like drawing a grid on my work surface. I have tried them but I don’t like projectors. You can’t see the lines drawn unless very dark which I do not want, plus the shadow from your hand and the pencil confuses things even more.

                                    The easiest and most precise way I have found to get your initial drawing or a photograph transferred to the surface is with a computer printed transfer sheet. The basic steps are listed below.

                                      [*]Create your final drawing or photograph of the piece at the exact ratio (not the exact size) of your working surface so it will enlarge to fit your surface without cropping.
                                      [*]Scan your drawing or take a photo of it if you aren’t working from a photograph
                                      [*]In Photoshop etc. change the size of the digital image to the exact size of your intended work in inches or millimeters, keeping the same ratio. Choose to NOT interpolate when changing size otherwise your file might end up really huge.
                                      [*]Increase contrast, color balance vibrancy, saturation and such as needed so that the shapes and lines will be easier to see. If you plan on printing in black and white, convert it to black and white now so you will have a better idea as to how it will look when printed out. Some color edges will be totally lost when converted to black and white.
                                      [*]You might want to experiment with filters such as posterization, find edges and others to more clearly define the shapes.
                                      [*]Save that as a PDF. If you are running Windows you can simply print it using the Microsoft Print to PDF printer driver.
                                      [*]Open the PDF in Acrobat.
                                      [*]Print it out at 100% using the Tile function in Acrobat. I like to use the crop marks and label options to make it easier. Use the largest size paper your printer allows to reduce the number of sheets. Set it for portrait and again for landscape printing to see which uses fewer sheets of paper.
                                      [*]When printed, number the sheets clearly if it is a complex piece so you can put the puzzle together easily. The markings from Acrobat are tiny and will be cut off when/if you trim the sheets.
                                      [*]Tape it all together. Leave the outside extra paper borders on for now so you can get the transfer pigment right to the edges more easily.
                                      [*]Cover the back with graphite, pastel or some other dry pigment that will transfer easily.
                                      [*]Cut it to the exact size of your work surface. This will make re-alignment much easier if you have to replace it to trace darker or for something you missed.
                                      [*]Tape it over work surface in such a way that they cannot shift out of alignment and trace what you need. I like to use a brightly colored fine point “Gel” ballpoint pen as that makes it much easier to see what has been traced plus they leave a better line on the work than a pencil. For bolder lines use a bolder pen tip and / or press harder. If you need to trace again on the same work or a new one, use a pen of a different color.
                                      [*]After a few strokes, make sure you are using enough pressure by lifting up a corner of the paper to check BEFORE you have done very much.
                                      [*]Depending on what you will be working with you may want to use fixative on the transfer. I have never used fixative.

                                    I haven’t decide which method of joining the sheets I like better. If you trim them first you lose your crop marks that I use for aligning the sheets more precisely with images that don’t have much linear stuff in them.

                                    Taping together on a light table or on a window with the light coming from the other side is really easy and fast using the crop marks to align things. If you trim before joining you will only have the image itself to do your alignment, which shouldn’t be a big problem as long as your cuts are all straight and you numbered the sheets.

                                    Tape up the joined edges using Scotch tape or some other clear thin tape. You can tape them fully or just tabs of tape every few inches. On large works fully taped is easier to handle. If cost isn’t an issue, you might consider having the image printed out on a large format printer. My local guy will print a 32” print for $20 on cheaper papers at the lowest quality setting.

                                    On the back side, it helps keep stray lines from showing up where the pigment gets under the paper edges if you completely tape the edges but pastel will not stick to the tape, only graphite and then just barely, so I usually only tape the front side and deal with the lines left by the paper overlaps.

                                    Depending on the piece, I use graphite or colored pastels. One nice thing about pastels is that you can choose a color that will show up enough to see it without being too dark and/or a color that fits with the image you will be using. You can use a different pastel color for different areas to match what will be laid down there. Pastel seems to be less of a worry vs graphite as far as contaminating the colors you are going to use. I think that some pastels seem to stick to the paper better than others and some better than graphite. Experiment until you find something you like. Papers that have more tooth than regular copy paper work better for holding the pigment.

                                    Tape the sheet on a big window so that it is back lighted with the BACK side facing you, and you can mark the areas that need transfer powder if the image has large areas that don’t need any tracing – leaving those areas blank. No sense putting down pigment in a large area that has nothing to trace in it. This will save time and pigment. You can also select areas where you want to use colored pigment if any and mark them on the back side if you choose to go that route. You can use colored markers or the actual pastel to loosely outline the areas that are going to be colored to make it easy to apply the pastels.

                                    I use powdered graphite rather than a graphite stick or thick pencil as it applies much faster. Dust it over the back then rub it in with your fingers. I use a Nitrile glove for that step. Rub it in really well then wipe the entire surface with paper towels to remove loose graphite. If you don’t then you will have excess staining from the graphite from palm pressure. I haven’t tried a graphite stick, but I am guessing they will work a bit better than powdered graphite as far as reducing unintended transfers from hand pressure. I just could not see myself covering a 4 foot paper with a graphite stick, so I didn’t even consider it.

                                    When adjusting the image in Photoshop I usually convert it to black and white as I print mine most of the time on a laser printer. BUT – Printing it in color makes it easier to see details that are the same value but a different color. Use the lowest quality setting on your printer to save ink. Printing in color is by far better. You can see the shapes much better. If you end up using this frequently you might want to buy the ink in bulk and refill your cartridges so cost isn’t a big deal with color printouts.

                                    So far the largest piece I have used this with was 36×48 inches. It went VERY fast and saved me a lot of time. The results exactly matched my original sketch (or photograph if that is what you are using.)

                                    .

                                    #1259192
                                    Artist1987
                                    Default

                                        Thanks to all of you.

                                        I was wondering whether the more expensive model from artograph would be similiar too a way cheaper projector (the Amaz..link above).
                                        I had the impression that artograph was way overpriced and i do not need grids etc.

                                        I just need a rather small projected image from 20 or 30 inch diagonals upwards.
                                        And i wondered whether those cheaper projectors from Amaz… would serve that purpose.
                                        I also intend to use a usb-stick and jpeg formats.

                                        #1259175
                                        shadwell
                                        Default

                                            I personaly use a digital media projector …………..http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200-Lumens-Portable-HD-LED-Projector-HDMI-USB-VGA-AV-Digital-TV-160-INCH-/291597918586?hash=item43e497217a:g:TTYAAOSw~bFWK1Xx cheap to buy new or used …………..I set up my canvas on a wall held firmly on picture hooks and blue tack then stand projector on a firm surface ,, desk or table etc ,, ( both at height line up for an un tilted image”’then zoom in and move up down till image I require fits canvas as I require , then I draw my outlines on canvas with a uni ball eye micro or fine pen as ink resists oil or acrylics when dry ,,,,, the method saves hours for realism studies as I used to sketch with numerous alterations or grid out and both left pencil pen marks that were hard to cover

                                            one of my works before using a projector messy rubbed out gridding lines in pencil that took a few coats to cover up

                                            the hours saved in my next example are unreal as the above example to get what I want I combine many images in photoshop then I used to print out the image draw a grid on it . calculate the size ratio of my squares to increase the size draw the grid on the canvas once image was drawn erase pencil ( doesn’t always go .. ) then whilst painting struggle to cover the lines

                                            now I do my image in photoshop , project onto canvas and draw round my main outlines faster , cleaner , easier , no errors , no lines or mistakes to cover ….. biggest game changer I ever hit on , don’t bother with art projectors feint and hard to work with , think outside the art supplies box’

                                            here’s my last commission …

                                            and next on the easel is a group of images manipulated in photoshop to give my desired street scene the woman with pram ,car , and truck are all from other photos manipulated to fit how and where I wanted to populate an otherwise un populated street scene , the background had the camera distortion taken out in the camera distortion editor in photoshop to improve verticals on buildings and barrel distortion caused by camera lenses…..

                                            [FONT=Fixedsys]if at first you don't succede !!!![/COLOR]
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                                            #1259170
                                            karenlee
                                            Default

                                                I would avoid the Artograph as my friends who have used it complain of great distortion in enlarged images; the lens is crappy. I think you are much better off with Shadwell’s suggestion of good digital projector FOR SURE! I got mine online; it is a used HP that cost $35 at e-cycle. The lamp is so bright I don’t even have to turn off the room lights to use it.

                                                #1259188

                                                I would avoid the Artograph as my friends who have used it complain of great distortion in enlarged images; the lens is crappy. I think you are much better off with Shadwell’s suggestion of good digital projector FOR SURE! I got mine online; it is a used HP that cost $35 at e-cycle. The lamp is so bright I don’t even have to turn off the room lights to use it.

                                                Thanks Karen and Shadwell for the information. Karen do you know what the lumens are on your HP? These are huge savings over the Artograph.

                                                Angel :angel:
                                                Website Makeover Coming! This is available now.
                                                http://www.artist-bythesea.com/

                                                #1259182
                                                Colorado_Ed
                                                Default

                                                    Something else you may want to think about is a little more low-tech:

                                                    The problem with this type of projector is you have to trace the image onto a transparency first but they can project a large image with little to no distortion. I got mine from a school that was upgrading to digital projectors along with a couple of extra bubs.

                                                    "The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." Neil deGrasse Tyson

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                                                    #1259193
                                                    Artist1987
                                                    Default

                                                        I personaly use a digital media projector …………..[URL]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1200-Lumens-Portable-HD-LED-Projector-HDMI-USB-VGA-AV-Digital-TV-160-INCH-/291597918586?hash=item43e497217a:g:TTYAAOSw~bFWK1Xx[/URL] cheap to buy new or used …………..I set up my canvas on a wall held firmly on picture hooks and blue tack then stand projector on a firm surface ,, desk or table etc ,, ( both at height line up for an un tilted image”’then zoom in and move up down till image I require fits canvas as I require , then I draw my outlines on canvas with a uni ball eye micro or fine pen as ink resists oil or acrylics when dry ,,,,, the method saves hours for realism studies as I used to sketch with numerous alterations or grid out and both left pencil pen marks that were hard to cover

                                                        one of my works before using a projector messy rubbed out gridding lines in pencil that took a few coats to cover up

                                                        [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/24-Oct-2016/208070-2007_0323disco0002_copy_edited-1.jpg[/IMG]

                                                        [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/24-Oct-2016/208070-DSC_0001_copy.jpg[/IMG]

                                                        the hours saved in my next example are unreal as the above example to get what I want I combine many images in photoshop then I used to print out the image draw a grid on it . calculate the size ratio of my squares to increase the size draw the grid on the canvas once image was drawn erase pencil ( doesn’t always go .. ) then whilst painting struggle to cover the lines

                                                        now I do my image in photoshop , project onto canvas and draw round my main outlines faster , cleaner , easier , no errors , no lines or mistakes to cover ….. biggest game changer I ever hit on , don’t bother with art projectors feint and hard to work with , think outside the art supplies box’

                                                        here’s my last commission …

                                                        [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/24-Oct-2016/208070-_DSC4171.jpg[/IMG]

                                                        [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/24-Oct-2016/208070-_DSC4460.jpg[/IMG]

                                                        and next on the easel is a group of images manipulated in photoshop to give my desired street scene the woman with pram ,car , and truck are all from other photos manipulated to fit how and where I wanted to populate an otherwise un populated street scene , the background had the camera distortion taken out in the camera distortion editor in photoshop to improve verticals on buildings and barrel distortion caused by camera lenses…..

                                                        [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/24-Oct-2016/208070-mnmmjy6rrfghjgw356.jpg[/IMG]

                                                        Thanks to all of you.
                                                        Shadwell, your projector is in the price range i was looking at.
                                                        It says that 22 inch is the minimum projected image. Does it still provide unpixeled projections at that rather small size?
                                                        The wide range of diagonals from 22 inch to bigger sizes is important to me.

                                                        Can you turn the projected image so that it becomes relatively higher than wide?
                                                        I also want to paint 60 cm wide and 90 cm hight and those projectors all give relatively wider images due to home cinema use.

                                                        I do not have photoshop and my old laptop does not have hdmi. Can you project jpegs straight from an usb-stick?

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