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June 21, 2016 at 3:21 pm #994198
Hi all, I am brand spanking new to both WC and to oil painting. The ‘fat over lean’ concept makes sense to me so I get that and why. My confusion comes from the you tube tutorials I’m watching. Maybe what I thought I understood was way off but when I prime my canvas with gesso and then a light even coat of linseed oil before painting… Isn’t that putting the fat under the lean?? I apologize if my newbiness is showing or if this should be standard information but I’ve only picked up my first paint brush a month ago. I’m willing to learn and have read a lot of information but this one thing keeps sticking out to me and no one has really explained it.
Could it be artist choice?
June 21, 2016 at 4:14 pm #1253402Hi all, I am brand spanking new to both WC and to oil painting. The ‘fat over lean’ concept makes sense to me so I get that and why. My confusion comes from the you tube tutorials I’m watching.
You must be cautious when viewing YouTube presentations. Just because something is on YouTube [or printed somewhere] doesn’t mean that it is true, or an appropriate thing to do. Learning to sift, and sort the useful, appropriate stuff from the nonsense that is available on the internet takes a bit of practice, and in order to be better able to do that, you sometimes need to have had a bit of experience with oil painting, ….or to gain information from those painters whom you trust. Within a few months, you should be able to do that quite well, actually.
Maybe what I thought I understood was way off but when I prime my canvas with gesso and then a light even coat of linseed oil before painting… Isn’t that putting the fat under the lean??
Yeah, it is, and I would not do that! Seems you have already made a sound decision, even with your limited experience. Good for you! An “even coat of Linseed Oil” is about the fattest layer of anything you could apply to a bare [acryic-primed] canvas. An appropriate alternative would be to use a very lean medium, mixed with oil paint, and apply that to the canvas, instead. I use one portion Stand Oil to 5 portions Turpentine (or Odorless Mineral Spirits). That’s a very lean medium, and, when mixed with some White oil paint it creates a very appropriate coating (primer) for sizing an acrylic-primed canvas surface.
I apologize if my newbiness is showing or if this should be standard information but I’ve only picked up my first paint brush a month ago. I’m willing to learn and have read a lot of information but this one thing keeps sticking out to me and no one has really explained it.
Could it be artist choice?
Well, that operation might be some artist’s choice, but not my choice, and most certainly not a very good one! I’ve seen demo artists perform some of the most inappropriate operations related to oil painting, and I just do my best to keep quiet, because someone believes it to be a “good thing” to do.
However, whenever someone asks, I often feel obligated to at least offer my opinion.
As I mentioned, make a lean medium, and mix that with OIL PAINT. Apply that to your canvas. That creates a wonderful surface upon which to apply “image paint”.
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
https://williamfmartin.blogspot.comJune 21, 2016 at 4:40 pm #1253405There is missing information here which prevents a definitive single answer.
If you’re painting in one layer, it doesn’t matter at all.
If you’re painting in layers, it could matter.
The type of oil can matter, if they are using a mix of oil and solvent, that can matter. Maybe they will do every layer in the same way. The drying time between layers can make a difference, as well.
There are so many bad youtube tutorials. So many.
Also, let’s be honest, people get really really hung up on this concept, as well. Most of the time, you’re just not going to see much issue with this, even violating it flagrantly. People worry sooo much about so many pet issues with oil…yet they still use flexible supports all the time which have been hands down the worst issue for me.
Don’t use any more medium than you really need, and you ought to be a-okay.
* Zaney Zebras (blog) * facebook art page * facebook floral design page * Recipe Blog *
"...I wished to live deliberately...and not, when I came to die, discover that I have not lived." ---Henry David ThoreauJune 21, 2016 at 5:19 pm #1253406AnonymousMaybe what I thought I understood was way off but when I prime my canvas with gesso and then a light even coat of linseed oil before painting… Isn’t that putting the fat under the lean?
No, it is not a layer of paint, it is just a thin couch. A substantial layer of paint will undergo dimensional changes, that you may need to be concerned with, but a thin couch layer of medium will not.
No rule has ever created as much confusion as “fat over lean”.
A couch of oil (I also prefer using a medium rather than neat oil), placed upon bone dry gesso’d canvas, prior to applying a proper layer of oil paint, is one of the best things you can do.
It doesn’t matter if you are painting alla prima, or many layers.
If you do not put down a couch first, and begin applying paint, then some of the oil binder that is needed in that paint, may be sucked down from that paint layer, leaving sunken in areas that look dry and matte, because they are rendered oil poor. A thin couch will precondition the bone dry canvas and the tiny amount of oil will be incorporated into, and become a part of the first layer of paint.
I have done it for my entire painting career, since I read in a Walter Foster book, about Robert Wood, that you should always do it to ensure a good bond to the canvas. I have never seen the slightest indication of any issue.
So a couch of medium is not a layer of paint.
A couch also conditions the dry surface and makes it more receptive to the application of paint, which is another big plus.June 21, 2016 at 6:33 pm #1253409If you’re painting over the layer of oil while it is still wet, then the oil combines with the paint and is fine. It is called painting into a couch, and one should only put oil on areas that you intend painting over immediately, and you should use only a minimal amount of oil.
It is generally used over a dried underpainting to make the surface slippery and to give the underpainting a wet look, saturating the colours and so aiding in matching colours.I would warn against ‘conditioning’ a canvas with oil and letting it dry before painting on it though.
General advice is to keep the layers as simple as possible, and a dried layer of oil creates a extra layer in a sandwich of materials.If you’re a member of facebook, I suggest joining the group “Painting Best Practices” and ask your question there.
You will get qualified responses there from paintmakers and conservators.Ron
www.RonaldFrancis.comJune 21, 2016 at 7:23 pm #1253403Well, now you’ve received advice that spans the entire spectrum…….No, it’s an inappropriate thing to do……It’s the best possible thing you can do……and, well, yes, it’s OK, but with stipulations. See what I mean about “sifting and sorting”?
Tough for a newbie to accept, but that’s the nature of oil painting, I’m afraid.:lol:
Time to decide for yourself, I suppose. Check the work of those who contributed to the answers of your question, and that may help to influence you in making your decision. You may Private Message me at any time for explanations, or logic behind my recommendations. I’ll help you in any way that I can, as will the others, I’m sure.
You need to consider at least 3 things when you accept advice regarding your work with oil paints. (1) Does it make your job of painting easier to accomplish? (2) Is it durable enough to last a long time? (This is the basis for your original question.) (3) Does it contribute to the overall quality [appearance] of your painting?
Other than those 3 things, it is mostly about the following:
Cost
Availability of materials
Physical sensitivity to materials
Allegiance to specific brandsOften there are trade-offs. For example, in order to get a drying oil that yellows less, you may have to accept one that dries slower, and creates a bit weaker paint film.
And, in order to experience the nice flow, and less yellowing of a Walnut Oil-based paint, you may need to sacrifice a stronger paint film, for a bit weaker one.
We all make these choices as we progress in our journey through the wonderful experience of oil painting.:) But, those choices should be made based upon logical reasoning, and not necessarily upon some demo on a YouTube video. (The address of my blog is directly below this message.)
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
https://williamfmartin.blogspot.comJune 22, 2016 at 2:33 am #1253414Well you’re absolutely right WFMartin, I got answers that completely contradict each other. I wish it were a little more straight forward, a little more hard and fast rule to it but I guess that this is what makes an artist, NOT wanting to live within the lines right. Regardless, I thank you all for your advice, I appreciate that you’ve each taken the time to explain your reasoning.
WFMartin – I will certainly take you up on your offer and PM you, as a newbie I would be grateful for the help and will benefit from your experience so thank you.
June 22, 2016 at 5:41 am #1253410Fat over Lean is not working. I prefer to totally ignore this “rule” for fun!
June 22, 2016 at 6:07 am #1253407AnonymousAnother very popular option, that accomplishes a similar thing, is to add a small amount of paint, thinned with your medium, and apply it as a sort of “stain” to eliminate the white canvas look, and to also condition, or lubricate the surface to facilitate paint application. Alla prima painters tend to call this a “toned ground”, where as classical layering painters like to call it an “imprimtura”. It is also employed in a technique called wiping out, where light and dark areas are roughly delineated by wiping away some of the tone.
If solvent is used to thin the oil, it may provide for a thinner application, but it will evaporate anyway, leaving only oil.
edit:
sometimes after posting, I read backwards in the thread and I see that Bill has already recommended doing this same thing:make a lean medium, and mix that with OIL PAINT. Apply that to your canvas. That creates a wonderful surface upon which to apply “image paint”.
June 22, 2016 at 6:32 am #1253408AnonymousFat over Lean is not working.
That is because it is not enough info to be used as a general rule.
I predict that the oil painting community will ultimately come to this conclusion, but not until many more decades of laboriously trying to explain all of the vagaries, quirks, variations, contradictions, questions, and confusions. It is a full time job trying to explain these three simple words, good luck with that!
George O’Hanlon is one of the modern proponents of discarding this well intended, but problematic “rule”. Many others and even paint makers are promoting other terms such as flexible over less flexible.June 22, 2016 at 7:37 am #1253411Fat over Lean is not working. I prefer to totally ignore this “rule” for fun!
I do too. Its not that I dont know the rule but the fact that when I stop thinking about everything that slows me down including thinking my create side kicks in. And I actually enjoy painting. Fun is paramount for me nowadays. If it doesnt last. It doesnt last and I get a few cracks I like that uncertainty. Fun:wave:
But Im gradually eliminating mediums and painting directly from the tube anyway.
June 22, 2016 at 9:35 am #1253413But Im gradually eliminating mediums and painting directly from the tube anyway.
Adding some extra oil to the paint will make it more flexible and less prone to cracking in a hundred years.
June 22, 2016 at 9:41 am #1253415I did put on the linseed oil as instructed before painting an Alla Prima landscape so it should be fine as Ron said. I’m still a little uncertain of what I’ll do as I’d like to start layering and have some work that needs to be touched up. I didn’t buy any medium yet as there were sooo many choices and I didn’t even know what medium was for yet so walked away. I too paint straight out of the tube. It’s all so technical and I just wanted to paint 😩
June 22, 2016 at 9:46 am #1253416I’m not too worried about my painting cracking, it’s only a ‘masterpiece’ to me, I’m very proud of it.
June 22, 2016 at 10:43 am #1253412Adding some extra oil to the paint will make it more flexible and less prone to cracking in a hundred years.
I know the benefits of adding oil . I also know the downsides. For me now the downsides outweigh the positives. So I prefer to paint directly from the tube.
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