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Old 06-17-2019, 05:56 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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what thickness of Medite to use

Many thanks to Ben Sones for his excellent advice on what kind of panel to use for oil painting.
I have a question about mediate - what thickness should I use in order to produce an oil painting which has no frame and will just hang flat on the wall with no bowing or distortion?
thankyou
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:47 AM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by ealteacher
Many thanks to Ben Sones for his excellent advice on what kind of panel to use for oil painting.
I have a question about mediate - what thickness should I use in order to produce an oil painting which has no frame and will just hang flat on the wall with no bowing or distortion?
thankyou

How large of a piece are you planning?

Generally, any wood product support that is not going to be cradled or framed is going to be prone to warping regardless of the thickness. Thinner materials will of course be more susceptible to warping. If you don't want to cradle or frame them, I would suggest at least using hidden bracing on the backs rather than leaving them plain, to help mitigate warping.

I am assuming you have seen this thread of Ben's?
Framing definitely helps to mitigate warping, but 18x24" is on the large side for unsupported hardboard, even in a frame.
http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/show....php?t=1376816

Personally, from my experience with warping as well as damaged corners, I would never choose to hang any type of uncradled or un-braced wood product panel of any size or thickness, be it MDF, Plywood, Tempered Hardboard, Medite, Medex etc. I choose ACM panels for all my unframed / un-cradled free floating pieces. By varying the thickness from 3mm to 6mm you can go up to a full sheet of 4x8 ACM with nothing more than standoffs and a support system and have zero warping. It is still better to at least brace large sheets using aluminum channel. It doesn't have to show. They are also significantly lighter than an equivalently rigid wood product based panel. The corners and edges are still susceptible to damage, but not as dramatic and possibly non repairable as you can get with the wood products. I have not tested Medite or Medex. They do appear to be less prone to damage, but I would still not use them without at least a frame and bracing for larger ones. The problem with the wood based stuff, un-cradled, for big panels is you have to go pretty thick to approach or equal the rigidity of the ACM, and they then become far too heavy, plus they will still warp.

Last edited by contumacious : 06-17-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:42 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Thankyou Contumacious!
Now back to searching for 'hidden bracing' and ACM and aluminium channels.
Pat
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:54 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

You are welcome.

The lowest priced ACM panels are from Montroy Supply or Grimco. You will need a business license. If you don't have a license, try a sign shop and ask for their best price on 3mm and 4mm Montroy Supply Moncore M-Panel or Grimco MaxMetal. 3mm (Item Number: MEP4X8X3MMW) is plenty stiff for 28" uncradled, 4mm (Item Number: MEP4X8X4MMW) is rigid enough for 48"+ uncradled. Much bigger than 48" go with 6mm or epoxy some 3/4" x 3/4" Aluminum Angle on the 4mm sheets. Aluminum angle from Home Depot 3/4" x 3/4" x 8 footers are $10. The aluminum bracing also makes it easy to hang the painting with a wire attached to the top brace. I usually just run one brace at the top and one at the bottom on the longest sides but you can do a full box if you want. Set them in far enough that they won't show. Paint them flat black if you want but not where the glue goes. Give me a shout if you want more tips on prepping the ACM Panel, though there is lots of good info out there on the web.

https://www.homedepot.com/s/everbuil...20angle?NCNI-5

https://www.montroy.com/com/category...Moncor+E-Panel
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:02 PM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Thankyou for this. I have researched some of the ideas you gave me. It seems that ACM panels would be really nice to try but are too expensive for me to use at the moment. So it is still MDF for me - the low formaldehyde type called Medite. I will have to learn how to brace it. but am encouraged by the recommendation to use glue at this site: https://www.naturalpigments.com/arti...nting-support/ I am not a woodworker and glue seems easy.
thank you Contumacious
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:18 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by ealteacher
Thankyou for this. I have researched some of the ideas you gave me. It seems that ACM panels would be really nice to try but are too expensive for me to use at the moment. So it is still MDF for me - the low formaldehyde type called Medite. I will have to learn how to brace it. but am encouraged by the recommendation to use glue at this site: https://www.naturalpigments.com/arti...nting-support/ I am not a woodworker and glue seems easy.
thank you Contumacious

You are most welcome. $43 for a 4x8 sheet of 3mm is a bit expensive. Maybe save that for your next big commission. How much are you paying for a 4x8 1/2 sheet of Medite? I can't find any pricing online.

Everything I am seeing about Medite looks positive. Please let us know what you think once you have used the material for a big painting. Are you thinking 1/2 inch? How big are you going? I wish I could find some for sale here. Nobody stocks it.

By glue I am assuming you are talking about the glue used for bracing? They suggest carpenter's glue which will definitely do the job. The makers of Medite recommend the following types of glue, PVA (example Titebond III), PU (Example Gorilla Glue), RPF, or EPI wood adhesive systems.

http://www.meditetricoya.com/images/...1_05.14doc.pdf

You can figure out how far to inset the bracing by laying the braces underneath the panel on a table then look at an angle that would be similar to what you might have when it is hanging on the wall. I like to paint the sides of the inset bracing a satin or matte black to make them less visible. Inset bracing is much easier than cradling since the joints can be simple butt joints and they don't have to be perfect due to their semi hidden nature.

If you decide to go with a cradle type bracing that is flush with the edges, you can finish the edge off with thin strips of stained wood once the painting is done, for a really nice presentation. This method protects and hides the edges of your Medite and the cradle with not too much work or expense.

https://theturquoisehome.com/how-to-...vas-for-cheap/
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Old 06-18-2019, 03:10 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

This is useful advice for me - thank you. I have found a stockist of medite sheets - the usual 2400 x 1200 mm and in varying thicknesses. As weight is an issue for me the advice about bracing is particularly helpful, as I can use bracing to support a thinner panel.
I only wish I could take about 'commissions' not at that stage yet. When I get the first painting finished, I'll post an image on here and let you know how I fared. I was quoted around $22 for a sheet 9mm thick. I found suppliers online who would deliver and cut to size so it's all doable.
thanks again for advice which is very helpful for me as I know nothing (always a good place to start from!)
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:20 AM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Sounds like you are all set! Best wishes for a smooth process.
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Old 06-19-2019, 02:18 PM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

I finally found some Medite product for sale. Wow! Expensive. It is the exterior grade Medex - $120 for a 4 x 8 x 1/2" sheet. More than double the cost of a 4mm Moncor M-Panel ACM, and not as nice of a surface to paint on, particularly for large pieces. What are you paying for a 4x8 x 1/2"?
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Old 06-20-2019, 04:28 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

The panels I want are not exterior grade which I think is called 'Tricoya' in UK, but Medite premium. This ranges from £13 to £27 in UK depending on thickness. I believe this equals $17 to $34 so much cheaper. The exterior grade is about the same price as you quoted. I hope you find something cheaper. I was set onto Medite by Ben Sone's article as ticking the most boxes for me in terms of price/surface/weight/emissions/stability etc

My next task is to find a way of transferring an image onto the Medite which works well and easily. I create images digitally which I then transfer into oil paint and or oil pencil. I am exploring image transfer at the moment with Golden matt medium and am not succeeding yet. Onwards and upwards!

(I live in UK where the metric equivalent of 4 x 8 x 1/2 is the standard panel size of 1220 x 2440 x 12 mm
MEDITE MR is produced in the following standard panel sizes: 1220 x 2440mm, 1220 x 3050mm, 1525 x 3050mm and 1830 x 2440mm. Standard thicknesses produced are 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 22, 25 and 30mm.)
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Old 06-20-2019, 09:47 AM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Quote:
Originally Posted by ealteacher
The panels I want are not exterior grade which I think is called 'Tricoya' in UK, but Medite premium. This ranges from £13 to £27 in UK depending on thickness. I believe this equals $17 to $34 so much cheaper. The exterior grade is about the same price as you quoted. I hope you find something cheaper. I was set onto Medite by Ben Sone's article as ticking the most boxes for me in terms of price/surface/weight/emissions/stability etc

My next task is to find a way of transferring an image onto the Medite which works well and easily. I create images digitally which I then transfer into oil paint and or oil pencil. I am exploring image transfer at the moment with Golden matt medium and am not succeeding yet. Onwards and upwards!

(I live in UK where the metric equivalent of 4 x 8 x 1/2 is the standard panel size of 1220 x 2440 x 12 mm
MEDITE MR is produced in the following standard panel sizes: 1220 x 2440mm, 1220 x 3050mm, 1525 x 3050mm and 1830 x 2440mm. Standard thicknesses produced are 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 22, 25 and 30mm.)

Thanks for the information. That price seemed out of line to me even for the Medex. Maybe they were special ordering it. I am going to check in a bigger city to see if I can find some at a lower cost. It sounds like the ideal wood based surface with none of the durability and moisture sensitivity problems associated with traditional MDF, plywood or Hardboard. Have you tested corner strength on some scraps by maybe smacking a corner on a concrete floor to simulate someone dropping a panel? I would also like to see how it responds to surface impacts. ACM panels will dent if impacted by hard objects.

Good luck with fine tuning your process!
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:18 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Hi
I'm feeling good today because I have found a printer who will print onto Medite at large sizes from a digital print and it is at a very reasonable cost $12 or so for A1. Now all I have to do is arrange transport to and from the printers.
Moral of the story is: she who keeps making enquiries eventually finds what she wants!
Hopefully, I will upload images of finished pieces. Hope my search benefits others.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:24 AM
contumacious contumacious is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Excellent! Keep us posted.
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Old 10-06-2019, 08:29 AM
ealteacher ealteacher is offline
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

Hi Contumacious
Apologies for long delay in reposting. I have to fit painting around family duties. Here is what I have found so far:
I can buy in UK a low-formaldehyde medite called medite ecologique or medite clear. this is, apparently, museum compliant. It costs around £30 for a 2240 x 1220 mm sheet - the minimum thickness is 9mm. It is possible to print onto the sheet using specialist large format printers and as far as I know, it is then possible to seal and prime the medite with clear sealer. There are some issues with a sealer ‘raising’ the fibres on the board somewhat so that the surface becomes a little ‘fluffy’. Suggested ways to avoid this are to use a solvent based sealer or to rapid dry the sealer.
It is possible for the medite supplier to cut up the sheet into one’s required picture sizes prior to printing from a pdf file.
The medite board would need to be braced in order to prevent warping.
Now I have got this far, I have changed tack - said family commitments cost money😏 and 9mm thick medite is quite heavy for me.
I will probably try this again as I get more into it.
In the meantime, I am going to use unstretched canvas mounted into board and to project my image onto the canvas using a digital projector. All of these things I already have so no expense!
I have recently found two critics, Jerry Saltz and Roberta Smith who make a lot of sense to me and Jerry Saltz says to do lots and lots of work - so, family (and political circumstances here in Brexit bound UK) permitting, that is what I am off to do.
Thanks for advice so far
Pat
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Old 10-06-2019, 01:16 PM
Richard P Richard P is online now
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Re: what thickness of Medite to use

For non-archival quick studies you can also look at expanded foam PVC sheets. light, cheap and easy to cut/paint, etc..
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