Home Forums Explore Media Pen and Ink The Three Problems With Pencils In Pen And Ink

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  • #989516
    Uath
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        I don’t think it’s OK to use a pencil for pen and ink.

        I want people browsing this site to hear my opinion. I’m not going to let it go! I’m a PROUD pen and ink artist. I’ve drawn with a pen for THOUSANDS of hours. I’m not promoting censorship or limiting creativity, this is pen and ink. If you want to create with mixed media, then create with mixed media. Don’t call it pen and ink unless you’re drawing with a pen!!!!!
        I LOVE art. All art is wonderful, but we’re not talking about all art here. We’re talking about pen and ink. To me, that means you make art with:

        A pen
        Ink, held inside the pen
        A piece of paper

        The Three Problems With Using A Pencil In Pen and Ink:

        1) A pencil is not a pen!

        If you draw with a pencil and then go over it with a pen, then you’re just highlighting a pencil drawing with pen. You may be a great artist, but that doesn’t mean you’re drawing with a pen.

        Drawing with a pencil isn’t the same as drawing with a pen. Drawing with a pen takes years of practice. That’s why pen and ink is so exacting and unforgiving.
        Yes it’s hard and yes you have to put in your hours. If you draw with a pencil, then you’re not drawing with a pen. You don’t know anything about drawing with a pen, because you’re not drawing with a pen.

        2) If you create the image with a pencil, then you’re not creating the image with a pen. You’re making a pencil drawing and then filling it in with a pen. That means you’re not drawing with a pen and you won’t start learning about drawing with a pen until you start drawing with a pen.

        3) Pencils and Pens are different. Yes, I can dip my head in butter and paint a peace sign on an elephant, but I can’t call it pen and ink, because it’s not pen and ink, it’s head and butter. Drawing with butter on your head is different than drawing with a pen. In order to draw with a pen, you have to draw with a pen.
        Are you starting to get my point??

        #1158738
        cashin1
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            Utah, I totally get what you are saying…..but… some of us are new to this medium and are learning. I for one need to learn perspective and proportion and drawing with pencil first helps me to find them. It is my guide until I am ready to guide myself naturally, freelance. I have noticed that I am beginning to understand techniques and problem solve without pencils now. I am relying more on my impression and ability and gaining more confidence. In the beginning when I first learned to draw in college they taught me to use pencils and graphs and I was so excited to finally make something look real….I am talking about really excited!! I also thought it was cheating, had a real hard time with that for years. But, again, it has helped me to become a better artist. When I teach my grandchildren, nieces, and nephews, I teach them that way right from the beginning so that they learn proportion and perspective right off. I struggled for so long that I felt that if they have talent, learning early on it will help develop that and it has for them. They now freelance without pencil and their perspectives have blossomed! My oldest son has the ability to draw what he see without graphs, every last detail, to me that is a specially innate talent, some people just have that God giv’n talent, I do not have that, I have to work on it over and over again. I do have the passion and drive to create….I never want to stop, it is always there for me. So if I need to use pencil until I get to the point that I am so good I will, it is my learning tool for now. Using the pen for stippling has allowed me to find and create values, more so than with pencil. I am so excited to have found pen and ink and be able to grow.

            You have brought up some very valid points and I will remember and use them as reference as I progress, thank you Utah for sharing :)

            Pam *C&C always welcome[/COLOR][/B]
            http://cashin1.deviantart.com/

            All art is beautiful......because everyone has their own perspective :clap:
            #1158705
            DBSullivan
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                So if an artist does a layout sketch of a still life before they begin their oil painting… then according to you, it’s not an oil painting, even though there isn’t a trace of pencil work in the completed project? I understand you feel very strongly about your “puritan” approach to ink drawings, but you are dangerously close to offending many great artists here who have a different view than you.

                Dave........."My pursuit of perfection is not intended to lead me to perfection, but to simply get me as far away as possible from imperfection."



                #1158792
                2dpuppets
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                    Let me start by saying I have seen your art. You are very good at what you do and a heck of a lot better than me, but… I feel your view is much to narrow.

                    You state that pen and ink must be done with with ink held inside the pen. I use a dip pen quite often and am still in the search for the elusive perfect pen nib. And Yes –> I do my broad layouts in pencil.

                    Did you know that those feather quills were pens and a pencil was a type of brush at one time. Definitions are strange like that they keep changing.

                    #1158727
                    Greggo
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                        “rules” are often broken in the name of progress.

                        many of the great masters used a grid system to lay out their work.

                        Artists should be the most tolerant people on Earth, for what we do is so personal, and altho I use pencil, computers, charcoal, watercolors, and gouache, I still label it as I choose- and that is that I think of myself as a pen&ink artist, sometimes using dip&drip, sometimes ballpoint pens, and often technical pens.

                        lighten up.

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                        #1158818
                        Buck B
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                            Not afraid to admit if there are “rules” for pen and ink, or any other medium for that matter, I will have, at some point, broken every one of them. I’ve just always believed that creativity has no boundries.

                            Comments and critiques are always welcome.

                            #1158812
                            katwalk
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                                Sorry you have been so upset by those of us who use pencil guides. My current reality is that if I don’t want to trash a lot of expensive paper to create the images I want in this medium I have to use pencil guides. I will also continue to call my work pen and ink. To call it anything else would only confuse non-artist viewers who have no clue about how I went about creating my work. Whether I use just ink or pencil and ink it is all a mystery to them, and you know what, they don’t care.

                                Would I love to have your skill with ink? – oh yes, but my life took me away from art for over 25 years, and I only came back to it about 4 years ago, I have come a long way, but I doubt I will have the time to develop my ink work skills to your level, not if I want to do more than create practice pieces of art. So you can look down your nose at my work, but I will continue to do it my way. Along the way I will try to take some time to practice with just pen and ink, but for works that I will spend hours on I will continue to use pencil to create the underlying design, and I will suggest to those who are new to pen and ink (esp. dip pens) that they start their drawings that way. Is it a crutch?- yes, but I did have training wheels on my bicycle, and eventually I learned to ride without them, maybe before I die I will be able to master pen to the point where I can do away with the pencil lines. Who knows.

                                It is your right to hold your views, and it is my right to hold mine, you have the right to do your art your way and I have the right to do mine the way I want. Enough said.

                                #1158720
                                Tattau
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                                    Purist nonsense.

                                    Artwork does not become "Art" until someone buys it... until then, it's just an obsession... and a storage problem.
                                    I welcome constructive critiques and comments from anyone and anywhere.
                                    My website

                                    #1158740
                                    Uath
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                                        I’m actually playing the Devil’s advocate. I’m much more tolerant than I sound. But this is HUGELY important, HUGELY!!!!!!! I’m here to tell people new to Pen and Ink; Using A Pencil Is NOT OK!

                                        If you’re going to be a pen and ink artist, draw with a PEN. I know rules. I’m not a rule-follower either. This isn’t a case of “Being Narrow.”
                                        If you’re coming up to me and saying you’re a pen and ink artist, then I want to see you draw something with a PEN. That’s not Narrow.

                                        1) I CANNOT sit by and watch something I’ve devoted my life to be degraded! There are new people here, new to pen and ink. I’m here to tell you using a pencil is NOT OK!!!
                                        I’m hearing these new people being told that using a pencil is totally accepted. Not only that, but they are actually being given “Tutorials” that expressly ask them to use a PENCIL!
                                        Am I actually going to look at a piece that started as a photo, had a pencil grid drawing made of it, and then inked over, being presented as PEN and INK????? Is this piece in a SHOW for pen and ink??? Not only that, but some of these people have the GALL to call my work “SIMPLE.”

                                        I’m sorry if I “Offend” anyone, but it needs to be said! Take the time to learn how to use a pen! Sorry….

                                        2) Pen and Ink is an exacting medium. It separates the True artists out. There’s no place to hide. If you make a mistake, you have to work with it. You’re either a Pen and Ink artist or you’re NOT. You’re either drawing with a pen, or you’re not. Painting accepts drawing as a means to an end. Pen and ink is an END in itself. Stop degrading it! Do you really want to see Pen and Ink degrade as an art form?

                                        Am I watching Pen and Ink evolve into enhanced pencil technique??? Am I?? Now that I’m getting older, do I get to watch inked-over pencil drawings become the STANDARD!!

                                        Try this and set yourself FREE:

                                        Get out your favorite pen and a piece of paper. Do a drawing using only those two things, post it here. I’m not saying don’t use a photo, just don’t directly COPY it. If you can draw with a pen, then let’s see it.

                                        I guarantee two things because I know. See, I’ve been there so many times; things won’t go like you planned, and you’ll end up with something a lot more human and interesting that any inked-over grid drawing.

                                        #1158706
                                        DBSullivan
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                                            Uath, I’ve been a successful pen & ink artist for many years, and i’ve also taught pen & ink courses at the college level, and I know a few things too…. if a customer wants a rendering of their home, they dont want a crooked version, they don’t want a flat no-depth version…. they dont want a spontaneous human mistake hanging on their wall. I see the type of work you do and i suppose your way works fine for the “book illustration” kinda images you create.

                                            Here is a drawing I did of a local scene here where I live. It’s one of my most successful prints. This specific image CANNOT be taken with a camera due to the layout of trees and the way the buildings lie in relation to the scene in real life. I basically re-created this scene WITH PENCIL using perspective, straight edges, rulers, etc. Did I trace over my pencil lines with a pen?? NO! but I did create the placement of various objects using a pencil. It took me aprox 150 hours to create this… not 8 hrs!! I spend more than 8 hrs taking reference photos for my drawings. Perhaps you would do well to stop churning out these quickies of yours! Then maybe you would know what a REAL pen & ink artist endures!

                                            I’ll put my work up against yours all day long!! It seems that you couldnt let sleeping dogs lie from the thread from the other day when we both expressed our own personal views. gloves are off pal! bring it!

                                            Of course, I do agree with one thing you said on that first thread…. you ARE old and cranky!!

                                            And to all the beginners/novices…. please don’t let this man confuse you… use your own discretion and know that it’s perfectly FINE to use pencil to lay out your drawing/painting in ANY art form!

                                            Dave........."My pursuit of perfection is not intended to lead me to perfection, but to simply get me as far away as possible from imperfection."



                                            #1158793
                                            2dpuppets
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                                                Here is a drawing I did of a local scene here where I live. It’s one of my most successful prints. This specific image CANNOT be taken with a camera due to the layout of trees and the way the buildings lie in relation to the scene in real life. I basically re-created this scene WITH PENCIL using perspective, straight edges, rulers, etc. Did I trace over my pencil lines with a pen?? NO! but I did create the placement of various objects using a pencil. It took me aprox 150 hours to create this… not 8 hrs!! I spend more than 8 hrs taking reference photos for my drawings. Perhaps you would do well to stop churning out these quickies of yours! Then maybe you would know what a REAL pen & ink artist endure.

                                                And to all the beginners/novices…. please don’t let this man confuse you… use your own discretion and know that it’s perfectly FINE to use pencil to lay out your drawing/painting in ANY art form!

                                                ^^^^^^^^^^ This!

                                                #1158728
                                                Greggo
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                                                    DB: I really appreciate your input, esp because I admire the work you do. I am also well aware of the time it takes to create a work like yours.

                                                    I recently had a very rainy day combined with time on my hands. I drove to the Bluff View Art District and did a quick sketch using only dip&drip on a large sheet of Bristol. It was the first time I tried a plien aire in a large scale. I then used the P&I work as the basis for a painting. That was when I saw how crooked my drawing was. I corrected the errors in oil on the canvas.

                                                    Despite it’s crookedness, the art instructor loved the P&I! He said it was fresh and spontaneous. But he also loved the oil painting and showed me where I could use the pen handle to gauge straight lines and perspective.

                                                    He also showed me where the earlier ref photos caused distortions in the first oil painting.

                                                    My Point?

                                                    I can see where plein air observation creates better artwork, when you can actually do that, and how each medium has it’s benefits and drawbacks (I corrected that oil painting for almost 10 hours before the teacher & I felt it was ‘right’- try that in p&I). Had I been too prideful to accept the instruction of others I would never grow.

                                                    Opening up to new possibilities creates better art.
                                                    Thinking I know it all and telling others they are creating impure art just keeps me producing mediocre work.

                                                    Hope I never stop growing and learning.

                                                    life is good

                                                    Greg

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                                                    #1158719
                                                    ARTMUTT
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                                                        I have used a pencil for all types of art, pen & ink, pastel, scratchbord, oils, the end result: pen & ink, pastel, scratchbord, oil. Just because you find that not using a pencil is what works for you- I find it pretty ridiculous for you to say that anyone that does is not doing it right. But, it’s not going to change how I do things. I’m sure others will just shake there heads and laugh at your statement and continue making great art……however they choose!

                                                        #1158813
                                                        katwalk
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                                                            Hmm, perhaps I don’t want to set myself “free”, I am currently working on a stipple piece with elaborate borders which I designed in my sketchbook. Here is a WIP image of the drawing as of last night, you can see the pencil lines I am using as guides, they were transferred from my sketch pad (where the design was worked out) to the drawing paper by using tracing paper. I want exact repeats, it is part of the look I am going for here, and I admit I couldn’t achieve that without the pencil.

                                                            You have your style and method of working, I am developing my own. As a bit of background to where I am coming from, I have had some Illustration training and we did create finished pencil drawings first, transferring outlines to a better surface and then doing the final inking, so I am working the way I was trained. By the way my instructor was a Professional Illustrator at one point in his career before he got married and wanted a steady pay check with benefits, I believe he was doing technical Illustrations where accuracy is needed and mistakes not allowed. A different approach to ink work, but still valid IMHO.

                                                            I don’t think I have ever claimed to be a “pen and ink artist”, I do art using pen and ink as tools, but it is just a tool. Anyone who thinks your work is simple doesn’t know what they are looking at, which even in the art world is probably a lot of people. Tools are changing, a lot of young people are more comfortable on the computer, which uses different skills and knowledge.

                                                            From what I have seen/read here most members are just trying to learn how to create something for themselves, friends and/or family, they don’t expect to become professional artists and often don’t have the time or energy to put in the necessary practice to develop the skills you have. Sadly the demand for professional ink artists isn’t that great and probably won’t come back anytime soon. Illustrations that used to be done with ink by hand have moved to computer generated graphics. Line work may start on paper, but it quickly moves to the computer where a drawing can not only be changed far more readily but can also be inserted into publications without any extra effort. Neither you or I can stop this change, it is what it is, but I take satisfaction in creating something on real paper with ink, it may not be to your standard but it is still an act of creation.

                                                            Many people are always looking for short cuts, and while there aren’t a lot of short cuts in the art world each individual has to decide for themselves which ones they will try to use to achieve their goals. Why else do people purchase books supposedly telling them how to draw/paint. :rolleyes: Nothing takes the place of plain hard work – getting in there and doing the drawings, be it with pencil or ink, over and over and over again.

                                                            I am still in the process of doing that work with pencil, I like to think I am getting there. I attend weekly live model sessions and draw, I also draw simple objects from life, and more complex flowers and animals from photographs. I don’t grid, and while my observation skills and accuracy have improved quite a bit I am still hesitant to draw directly with pen. Your prodding has motivated me to try and do some more direct pen work. So I am not totally a lost cause. :D I did the following last night, the reference photo was one posted in a WetCanvas forum as a challenge piece, but right now I don’t recall which forum it came from (I read several, sorry).

                                                            The bowl is a bit wonky, and I didn’t spend a lot of time on the basil, but it could be worse. I am telling myself that I need to do more of this, but sometimes I get sidetracked with other projects so no promises. :thumbsup:

                                                            #1158707
                                                            DBSullivan
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                                                                Greg, I absolutely see the value of plein aire ink drawings… I have a sketchbook full of them, and they do have a rightful place in the art world. In fact I always encouraged my students to keep a pen and sketch book with them to sketch any time they have the opportunity.

                                                                But just as there are plein aire oil paintings… and studio oil paintings… I am only trying to point out that the same applies to ink.

                                                                The points I’m making has nothing to do with my pride as an artist. My accomplishments speak for themselves. But when I imagine a beginner thinking that pencil is absolutely not allowed when doing ink drawings… well, this would be a terrible set-back only to add more difficulties to an already difficult medium.

                                                                Dave........."My pursuit of perfection is not intended to lead me to perfection, but to simply get me as far away as possible from imperfection."



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