WetCanvas
Home Member Services Content Areas Tools Info Center WC Partners Shop Help
Channels:
Search for:
in:

Welcome to the WetCanvas forums. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please visit our help center.

Go Back   WetCanvas > Explore Media > Oil Painting
User Name
Password
Register Mark Forums Read

Salute to our Partners
WC! Sponsors

Our Sponsors
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-16-2018, 06:09 PM
Blenheim's Avatar
Blenheim Blenheim is offline
Senior Member
Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 288
 
Hails from Canada
Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Here is an example of working on a glass pumpkin. I always find working with reds a challenge. I think just trying to get the values correct with the various types of red.



Name:  IMG_2654.jpg
Views: 235
Size:  69.3 KB

Name:  IMG_2666.jpg
Views: 236
Size:  58.3 KB

Name:  IMG_2911.jpg
Views: 234
Size:  124.9 KB
__________________
Stewart
Reply With Quote
  #2   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:33 PM
WFMartin's Avatar
WFMartin WFMartin is offline
A WC! Legend
Glendale, Arizona
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,903
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Gosh, that is an excellent example of glazing over a grisaille underpainting!

Beautiful work! May I ask what you're using for a glazing medium?
__________________
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...www.williamfmartin.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #3   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:24 PM
Blenheim's Avatar
Blenheim Blenheim is offline
Senior Member
Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 288
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

I actually use a version of your medium. I have learned a lot from all your postings.
I like oil of spike (love the smell) and linseed oil for this one.
__________________
Stewart
Reply With Quote
  #4   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:13 PM
Ellis Ammons's Avatar
Ellis Ammons Ellis Ammons is online now
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,168
 
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Thats a nice pumpkin. Looks cool.

To control your glazes better you can paint the red in greyscale. Kind of like using a pencil. If that makes sense. It looks like you have painted somewhat opaquely over you dead layer. Even mixed in white. It doesnt really look like a glaze. So you have basically wasted the dead layer. A glaze will not have nearly as much black as you have there in the dead layer. Alot of the value shift will be done with color. This is especially important with yellow. As you will end up with green where you don't want it. It's not as apparent with other colors.
__________________
Check out my Camellia WIP for a journey in acrylics.
oil and acrylic paintings..

Last edited by Ellis Ammons : 05-16-2018 at 10:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:33 AM
Gigalot's Avatar
Gigalot Gigalot is offline
A Local Legend
Tbilisi, Georgia
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,205
 
Hails from Georgia
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Very decorative painting. This pumpkin looks like it was made from glass and chrome and is very smooth. Good job!
Reply With Quote
  #6   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:25 AM
Blenheim's Avatar
Blenheim Blenheim is offline
Senior Member
Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 288
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalot
Very decorative painting. This pumpkin looks like it was made from glass and chrome and is very smooth. Good job!


Thanks

It is actually a glass pumpkin ornament. so the challenge was to get the glass look
__________________
Stewart
Reply With Quote
  #7   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:42 AM
WFMartin's Avatar
WFMartin WFMartin is offline
A WC! Legend
Glendale, Arizona
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,903
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

When I create a grisaille underpainting I actually expect it to be covered by my glaze layers as I add them during the process. For me, the grisaille underpainting serves as what I like to term a "value map" for the color glaze layers to follow. It shows me where the lights, and darks are located.

Once I have applied many glaze layers of color over it, it is pretty much obliterated by the color glazes. However, by the time it is covered, it has already accomplished it job of serving as a value map for my colors. Yellow colors are somewhat tricky to glaze over a grisaille, but after a few applications of color, the tendency for it to turn green is eliminated because the glazes of color eventually "build" on each other as I merely apply the color of yellow that I desire with each glaze. I don't consider the building of glazes upon a grisaille underpainting to be any sort of waste of time, since the result exhibits noticeable improvement with each application.

Color has 3 dimensions, or attributes, and those are hue, value, and chroma, and when I paint a grisaille underpainting accurately, the task of creating the correct values is then already solved. I can then concentrate upon the tasks of creating the correct hue, and chroma.

I find the concept somewhat similar to painting a wall; many times the addition of a desired color, applied over the exact same color will deepen, and enrich the final color. I don't consider that to be a waste of time, as long as the color has been improved (deepened, enriched) with each application.

If there is any "waste of time" inherent in this process at all, it would likely be the creation of the Umber layer. Since that gets covered by the dead layer, there is no reason you can't merely create the dead layer (the grisaille) from scratch, without the effort of creating the Umber layer first. Create the dead layer with all the values in their correct locations, and the Umber layer is no longer required.
__________________
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...www.williamfmartin.blogspot.com

Last edited by WFMartin : 05-17-2018 at 09:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:23 AM
Blenheim's Avatar
Blenheim Blenheim is offline
Senior Member
Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 288
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFMartin
When I create a grisaille underpainting I actually expect it to be covered by my glaze layers as I add them during the process. For me, the grisaille underpainting serves as what I like to term a "value map" for the color glaze layers to follow. It shows me where the lights, and darks are located.

Once I have applied many glaze layers of color over it, it is pretty much obliterated by the color glazes. However, by the time it is covered, it has already accomplished it job of serving as a value map for my colors. Yellow colors are somewhat tricky to glaze over a grisaille, but after a few applications of color, the tendency for it to turn green is eliminated because the glazes of color eventually "build" on each other as I merely apply the color of yellow that I desire with each glaze. I don't consider the building of glazes upon a grisaille underpainting to be any sort of waste of time, since the result exhibits noticeable improvement with each application.

Color has 3 dimensions, or attributes, and those are hue, value, and chroma, and when I paint a grisaille underpainting accurately, the task of creating the correct values is then already solved. I can then concentrate upon the tasks of creating the correct hue, and chroma.

I find the concept somewhat similar to painting a wall; many times the addition of a desired color, applied over the exact same color will deepen, and enrich the final color. I don't consider that to be a waste of time, as long as the color has been improved (deepened, enriched) with each application.

If there is any "waste of time" inherent in this process at all, it would likely be the creation of the Umber layer. Since that gets covered by the dead layer, there is no reason you can't merely create the dead layer (the grisaille) from scratch, without the effort of creating the Umber layer first. Create the dead layer with all the values in their correct locations, and the Umber layer is no longer required.

That explanation makes a lot of sense. I like the value map idea as you have said. That way you work out all the problems. I think you said that the painting almost paints itself. I would say most of all my dead layers get covered over.

I see the umber layer as just a rough underpainting to get me started.

I don't do all my paintings this way for example doing skies. I often use some sort of value map.
It is interesting to see how different people approach a painting. I kind of have a sense of fear until I get started.
__________________
Stewart
Reply With Quote
  #9   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:50 PM
WFMartin's Avatar
WFMartin WFMartin is offline
A WC! Legend
Glendale, Arizona
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,903
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Yes, as you say, it is interesting to note the way many painters begin their work, and the reasons they have for doing so.

I think over the years many of us sort of "evolve" in our ways of creating paintings, and I also believe that many of us begin our paintings in different ways, depending upon the subject matter.

As for myself, I basically have 3 different ways to progress on a painting, depending upon the subject.

I paint still-lifes, and flower paintings by beginning with a carefully prepared grisaille underpainting, over which I apply numerous glaze layers of color. I begin this with a careful, accurate drawing which I transfer to my canvas with charcoal.

When I paint landscapes, and cityscapes, I often do so with a bare minimum of a charcoal drawing, for which I indicate "key points" primarily. I perform a rough sketch in charcoal, and then I apply paint using that drawing as a guide. I do this painting with several layers, but I do not employ a monochrome underpainting.

When I paint a portrait, I begin with color, using a very blurry, photograph of my subject as the reference photo, and I copy that as closely as possible, making my painting as soft, and blurry as my reference image. I then use progressively sharper focus photos, copying the appearance of the photo each time, until I have reached the final, sharp photograph. For this method, I use no drawing, or sketching, whatsoever. Nor do I use a grisaille underpainting.

These are distinctly different methods which I have developed over a few years, and I find each very useful for the specific subject matter involved. I would, indeed, have a difficult task painting a landscape by following the same progressive focus method that I employ for painting a portrait, for example.
__________________
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...www.williamfmartin.blogspot.com

Last edited by WFMartin : 05-17-2018 at 01:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 05:17 PM
Dcam's Avatar
Dcam Dcam is offline
A WC! Legend
NorthWest NJ.
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,310
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Really creates a blast of contrast and color. Exciting.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 06:48 PM
Alan P. in OC's Avatar
Alan P. in OC Alan P. in OC is online now
WC! Guide
Huntington Beach, CA
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,977
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Very well-painted Stuart, colorful and beautiful work.

I can offer a reason or two why one paints an umber under layer 'just to destroy it' with further layers.

First, It goes on easily and quickly (1 color, thinned with a little medium and scrubbed in for lights, applied thicker for darks). Being burnt umber, it dries overnight as well.

Second, (if using a dead layer on top of it) it really looks unusually beautiful when your dead layer is done and certain areas of it are thinner, allowing the burnt umber to peek through a little bit. A simple neutral gray layer over brown can look quite blue in places, and I've been tempted many times to quit painting after an umber layer and a dead layer on top.

I've tried Bill Martin's floral approach many times early on in my painting career; I would paint 3 full grisailles until it looked absolutely perfect in black and white before adding color. Nothing wrong with that approach, but I figured if I'm going for color at the end but really want an underpainting for support and a value map, I'll change things up a bit:

I paint an umber underpainting like Stuart did, but instead of a full grisaille I would only paint (as my 'dead' layer) the lightest grays and white for the lightest areas of the painting, then go for my color layers.

You can see this approach on my last few WIP threads. Note, for super high-chroma colors, I would often plan for that and start off with a patch of white or a very light grisaille where that high chroma area would later be in the painting. The tail light on my last painting, 'Reflections of the Past' is one of those areas where I left it white in the underpainting and then glazed the reds and details on it later on. An underpainting there would've been the wrong thing to do as that area required high-chroma red glazed over white for the effect I was going for.

Didn't mean to get off topic, but wanted to add my 2 cents concerning underpainting methods.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:36 PM
WFMartin's Avatar
WFMartin WFMartin is offline
A WC! Legend
Glendale, Arizona
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 10,903
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Alan, that's not off-topic. I believe those explanations to be very helpful, and useful; nice to understand your method and process!
__________________
wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...www.williamfmartin.blogspot.com
Reply With Quote
  #13   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-17-2018, 07:38 PM
Blenheim's Avatar
Blenheim Blenheim is offline
Senior Member
Canada
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 288
 
Hails from Canada
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P. in OC
Very well-painted Stuart, colorful and beautiful work.

I can offer a reason or two why one paints an umber under layer 'just to destroy it' with further layers.

First, It goes on easily and quickly (1 color, thinned with a little medium and scrubbed in for lights, applied thicker for darks). Being burnt umber, it dries overnight as well.

Second, (if using a dead layer on top of it) it really looks unusually beautiful when your dead layer is done and certain areas of it are thinner, allowing the burnt umber to peek through a little bit. A simple neutral gray layer over brown can look quite blue in places, and I've been tempted many times to quit painting after an umber layer and a dead layer on top.

I've tried Bill Martin's floral approach many times early on in my painting career; I would paint 3 full grisailles until it looked absolutely perfect in black and white before adding color. Nothing wrong with that approach, but I figured if I'm going for color at the end but really want an underpainting for support and a value map, I'll change things up a bit:

I paint an umber underpainting like Stuart did, but instead of a full grisaille I would only paint (as my 'dead' layer) the lightest grays and white for the lightest areas of the painting, then go for my color layers.

You can see this approach on my last few WIP threads. Note, for super high-chroma colors, I would often plan for that and start off with a patch of white or a very light grisaille where that high chroma area would later be in the painting. The tail light on my last painting, 'Reflections of the Past' is one of those areas where I left it white in the underpainting and then glazed the reds and details on it later on. An underpainting there would've been the wrong thing to do as that area required high-chroma red glazed over white for the effect I was going for.

Didn't mean to get off topic, but wanted to add my 2 cents concerning underpainting methods.

thanks Alan I appreciate your insight and compliments.

Both you and Bill have been a great help to me.

I have been following your 'My Own Personal Minions', a new WIP with great interest.
I have used your idea of going over your drawing on canvas with the tinted white which allows the drawing to show through.

I have picked up more for this site than my time in art school. They only touch briefly on the underpainting and dead layer method. I guess it is not taught in art school these days.
__________________
Stewart
Reply With Quote
  #14   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-18-2018, 09:08 AM
Dcam's Avatar
Dcam Dcam is offline
A WC! Legend
NorthWest NJ.
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,310
 
Hails from United States
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

Really creates a blast of contrast and color. Exciting.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Report Bad Post  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:26 AM
Artist1987 Artist1987 is offline
Senior Member
old Europe, English non-native-speaker
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 185
 
Re: Umber layer , dead layer and glazing of a glass pumpkin

I also like the painting and have troubles with glazing consistencies myself.Since there is a lot of discussion about glazing and the benefit of grisailles, I figured I ask that here. Do you share an opinion as to the perfect consistency of a glaze? Could somebody relate that to pure linseed oil ,which is rather "thin".
I think I made my glazes too thin to ensure they are transparent. However, I cannot handle the paint satisfactorily if I do. It should be considerably thicker than linseed oil?
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:46 AM.


© 2014 F+W All rights reserved.