Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Burnt Sienna vs Burnt Umber

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  • #992532
    Bradicus
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        Burnt Sienna vs Burnt Umber.
        So I use these two semi-interchangably.
        One or the other. Going to drop one but just cant decide.
        I had dropped B. Sienna but starting using again and its a trooper.

        I hear B. Umber mentioned often; but Sienna, not so much.
        Anyone find either indespensable? Or both?

        B. Sienna is great for working the brown area.
        Also Umber doesnt ‘lift’ so great. But strong base colour.
        Both are very cost effective!

        For ref. I have YO and TRO on my palette in that area.

        What are you using? And if niether of these, what in this range?

        Cheers,
        Brad

        #1216765
        Mythrill
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            Hi, Brad!

            Traditionally, Burnt Sienna (PBr 7) is made from roasting Raw Sienna (also PBr 7), a pigment that is similar to Yellow Ochre (PY 43), but grayer and darker. Burnt Umber (PBr 7), on the other hand, comes from roasting Raw Umber (also PBr 7), a pigment that is, basically, clay. Burnt Umber is more transparent than Raw Umber, and also more orange.

            You can use both, but Burnt Sienna is more versatile in mixes. Some brands, like Winsor & Newton, actually sell Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) as Burnt Sienna. That is because they are similar, but PR 101 is redder and more transparent.

            I prefer to use Transparent Red Iron Oxide (Winsor & Newton “Burnt Sienna”), but I use acrylics, not watercolors, and you don’t really need both Burnt Umber and Burnt Sienna.

            They are both good, so I suggest you to try both. You’ll eventually find out which one you like best. :)

            #1216778
            basalsa
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                I’m just a beginner so I just say my opinion which might be totally incorrect but I would use both and if I had to drop one it’s umber since I think sienna is more saturated and can be cool down to shades of umber. Another tube I like is vandyke brown the least saturated and coolest but I like its character. There’s only burnt sienna in my instructed palette to use.
                There are pro guys here will help you

                #1216768
                Gigalot
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                    There’s only burnt sienna in my instructed palette to use.
                    There are pro guys here will help you

                    I also don’t have Burnt Umber. I have Raw Umber instead. Caput-Mortuum and cool Mars Red.

                    #1216771
                    opainter
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                        Transparent red oxide is my go-to color, and the mixes I get with it and other colors include all of the earth colors in the ochre, sienna, and umber families.

                        I also use Ultramarine Violet in place of TRO in my mixes for the darker browns.

                        The other mixes I get with TRO are almost endless.

                        Giga is also a big fan of TRO :thumbsup:, but it sounds like he is more selective in his application of this color.

                        AJ (opainter), C&C always welcome
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                        #1216769
                        Gigalot
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                            Giga is also a big fan of TRO :thumbsup:, but it sounds like he is more selective in his application of this color.

                            I use all their Oxides family :D So much, that Cadmiums have almost no job! 2-3 tubes of those Cadmiums are even never opened! :lol:

                            #1216774
                            Hilvar
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                                I would drop the Bsienna if I was intent on dropping one- since you are using TRO as well. This has pretty much replaced my B.Sienna and I get a good range of earths, greys darks and a deep black with UB and a touch of yellow. When I’m going lower key I have TRO on my palette. I don’t use my B.Umber very much, my style is typically alla prima but I have used it painting more indirectly as underpainting and of course it’s great for greys, dark earthy colours and generally darkening mixes. They are all very useful I suppose!

                                #1216764
                                WFMartin
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                                    Umbers are those kinds of colors that bounce all around in terms of color, based upon what the particular brand may be.

                                    I teach an oil painting class at a local rec. center, and for a long time, I’ve been asking my students to only purchase 6 colors:

                                    Ivory Black
                                    Ultramarine Blue
                                    Burnt Umber
                                    Cadmium Red
                                    Cadmium Yellow Light
                                    Titanium White

                                    These are all M. Graham oil paints. I can’t think of a landscape [and most still-lifes] that we have not been able to create accurately with only those 6 colors.

                                    By mixing them together, Burnt Umber, and Ultramarine Blue can be used to create all sorts of “off-neutrals”, Use a bit greater amount of Burnt Umber, and you achieve a very “warm” gray, and use a bit greater amount of Ultramarine Blue, and you achieve a much “cooler” gray, both of which are very handy in landscapes.

                                    Being darker in its value, I find Burnt Umber much more useful than the lighter, and redder, Burnt Sienna.

                                    However, if I were asked to take a limited number of colors to a desert island, where I would be required to “match” all the colors in any landscape that I painted, I would be capable of using either of those two colors, if given one, or the other (as long as I could still have my Black (ANY Black).:D

                                    wfmartin. My Blog "Creative Realism"...
                                    https://williamfmartin.blogspot.com

                                    #1216767
                                    maryinasia
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                                        I use both.

                                        #1216776
                                        Bradicus
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                                            Mythrill, I have used both quite a bit, just havent found a winner.
                                            I have the same WinsorNewton burnt sienna pr101 tro. In oil.
                                            So the umber/sienna is just helpful. I could live without both. But pretty useful.
                                            Basalsa, I am leaning toward B. Sienna.
                                            Giga, why raw umber? Just curious.
                                            Opainter, ya TRO is a go-to for sure. You said you mix it with others(yo, siennas,etc) What others are you using in that range?
                                            Hilvar, I agree: tro is indespensable once you grow to use it.
                                            Bill, its interesting you picked umber on your limited palette. Did you develop the palette you are using now yourself? MGrahams paints are nice to use, they and rembrandt/grumbacher make up the bulk of my oils.
                                            Cheers,
                                            Brad

                                            #1216772
                                            opainter
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                                                Opainter, ya TRO is a go-to for sure. You said you mix it with others(yo, siennas,etc) What others are you using in that range?

                                                I match the colors of Yellow Ochre and Burnt Sienna with mix of TRO with any inexpensive (but lightfast) yellow; I match the colors of the umbers with mix of Ultramarine Violet (instead of TRO) with same yellow. Simplifies my palette tremendously, no need for any ochre, sienna, or umber on it.

                                                Other colors I mix TRO with include Quinacridone Magenta (PR122), to match the color of Alizarin Crimson, and Cerulean Blue Chromium (PB36:1), which I use for grays. And, lest I forget, TRO also makes a great way to knock back those bright greens to more realistic greens that occur in Real Life.

                                                AJ (opainter), C&C always welcome
                                                :::: Helpful links for new users: User Agreement || Reference Images || C&C Suggestions || Color Theory and Mixing (color theory and color selection) || Full List of Forums
                                                :::: Painting Blog with an article now and then

                                                #1216777
                                                Bradicus
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                                                    … and Cerulean Blue Chromium (PB36:1), which I use for grays…

                                                    I perfer the gs of cerulean too. Pb36 (vs pb35) and it is the less expensive one. I use the heck out of it.
                                                    Though I must confess I dont know what the :1 means.
                                                    As to TRO: I find it and madder deep perm my red’ish workhorses.
                                                    Cheers,
                                                    Brad

                                                    #1216773
                                                    opainter
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                                                        When I mix TRO with PB36, I get green. Only with PB36:1 do I get gray. That’s the difference! The only paints that contain PB36:1 are acrylic paints, and only from Golden and Tri-Art. But I suppose that the right TRO paint when mixed with PB36 could give you a gray result. If not, you can just use the more expensive, but “real,” Cerulean Blue (PB35). At least if TRO mixed with PB35 produces gray!

                                                        AJ (opainter), C&C always welcome
                                                        :::: Helpful links for new users: User Agreement || Reference Images || C&C Suggestions || Color Theory and Mixing (color theory and color selection) || Full List of Forums
                                                        :::: Painting Blog with an article now and then

                                                        #1216770
                                                        Gigalot
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                                                            Giga, why raw umber? Just curious.

                                                            It is very fast drying, near black paint, which can replace black in many mixtures. Perfect for underpainting. I can also mix grays with it. It gives more natural color to paint trees. It can mix dark “Japanese” greens with Chromium Oxide. It has very good mixing properties with Yellow Ochre, Mars Red and Chromium Oxide. And it Dries, Dries, Dries! :lol:

                                                            #1216775
                                                            Hilvar
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                                                                I normally stick to a very limited palette and would concur that the pigments listed by WFMartin is all I would need for covering most hues found in nature. I generally don’t use black however. I usually have a tube of TRO handy though- it does cover bases for earth tones (the traditional yellows and reds), darkening mixes and also getting a black as deep as I’m ever going to need outdoors. I wouldn’t say I find it indispensable though- I can generally get the greys, darks and earth tones I need with a triad of primaries. I do always have cerulean handy however and frequently use it for greens, and I do find it indispensable when going for more vivid blue-green which is a weak point on my usual triad; I tend to use FUM or a deep UM so leaning it over to a green-blue has its limitations.

                                                                I use pr 177 as well as pr 122 when ever I need high chroma purple/violets- which is rare for me. I agree with opainter with regards to pr122 and TRO- you do get a good facsimile to A.Crimson that does actually work quite well in mixtures, albeit the results can be a bit more muted but this is not a disadvantage for most landscapes.

                                                                Bradicus: It sounds like you are quite fond of your Burnt Sienna- in which case why not just keep it :)

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