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  • #993795
    Saint Ragdoll
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        I am looking for a good Permanent Alizrin Crimson to replace the fugitive one.
        A person posting that Blick and Maimer using different pigments for their Perm. Alizarin Crimsons than the other manufacturers started me thinking.

        Which Perm. Alizrin most closely resembles in look and mixing the old fugitive Alizarin?
        I know everyone has differing opinions so has anyone done swatches in a side by side comparison?

        Teresa
        Saint Ragsoll

        #1246677
        janinco
        Default

            I’ve tried several and the pigment I like best as a replacement is Pyrrol Crimson. This isn’t the best comparison since the Alizarin Crimson is wet and the paper has more texture so you see more shadows. Actually in real life they are very close.

            Jan

            #1246675
            Cyntada
            Default

                Funny you brought this up, I was just revisiting an old attempt at a 3-pigment homemade blend for that purpose. Here’s the recipe and swatches, with some genuine PR83 to compare:

                In real life it really was pretty close, and I had all the component paints on hand so it was no hardship to swirl them all together and fill a pan. In practice, I used it a few times and lost interest. It was a nice color and painted well, but having a three pigment blend just felt messy to me. I tried a bunch of dark reds and ended up with Da Vinci Permanent Carmine. It’s one pigment – the ubiquitous PV19 – and nicely matches the real deal. Here’s a bunch of my test swatches:

                CK =)
                I take great comfort in knowing that my genuine typos will probably be blamed on some device's autocorrect. :angel:
                DIY art supplies, sketches, and more: cyntada.com / @cyntada
                #1246699
                ArtL
                Default

                    I use W&N paints, and their Permanent Alizarin Crimson (PR206) is pretty much a dead ringer for their fugitive PR83.

                    Art

                    "Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." ...Benjamin Franklin

                    #1246663

                    This is my reds Lightfast Chart…

                    My personal choice for Permanent Alizarin is Da Vinci’s PV19. However, I do find that I need to add the Daniel Smith Perylene Maroon PR179 when I need it to be deeper and richer, and D.S. Quinacridone Pink PR42 when I want a more vibrant pink.

                    By the way… both of my Operas faded miserably in my 13 month test. The Da Vinci Naphthol Red PR170 also faded. I now use their PR188 Permanent Red which is a true naphthol pigment.

                    Char --

                    CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                    #1246682

                    For me there is no Alizarin Crimson because the PR83 that is the original pigment of original Alizarin Crimson is a fugitive pigment and so unusable. The rest of reds have not the same pigments, neither the same hue with the original Alizarin Crimson, neither give the exact same kind of mixes, so I can’t see why I have to consider them as substitutes. It is different red colours made from different pigments.

                    So for me Alizarin Crimson is like never existed. There are so many beautiful reds out there.. why bother with this particular one that is fugitive?? Just because it has a nice name? :)

                    #1246664

                    Marialena, I agree with you 100%. None of my Students have ever used PR83, so they haven’t experienced the value range and depth of this pigment. I wish that the Manufacturers called their new formulas something different. Paint Names are so useless.

                    Permanent Alizarin Crimson comes in many flavours:

                    Da Vinci – PV19 Quinacridone Violet
                    Daniel Smith – PR177—Anthraquinone Red/PR149—Perylene Red/PV19—Quinacridone Violet
                    Holbein – PR122—Quinacridone Magenta
                    M. Graham – PR264—Pyrrole Rubine
                    QoR – PR177—Anthraquinone Red
                    Sennelier – PR206—Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red
                    Winsor & Newton – PR206—Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red

                    So, when I ask my Students to reach for their Permanent Alizarin Crimson paint name, the results can be very different!

                    Char --

                    CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci

                    #1246668
                    Saint Ragdoll
                    Default

                        Marialena,
                        For those of us who used the fugative Alizrin Crimson, we becaue used to that particular red and for using it in mixes. So we look for another pigment, or mix of pigments, that will look as close as possinle to the old PR83 and behave similarly in mixes.
                        There are pigments that closely resemble each other. We know paint manufacturers try to choose pigments for their lines of paint that offer the greatest variety to their buyers. So they may not choose to make a paint that resembles PR83 or CAD Red, or Pyroll red, because they already offer that hue .

                        But if there is a demand for a paint that resembles one of those hues, like artists demanding a permantly color that looks like the fugative PR83, then paint manufacturers have a reason to add that color to their lines so buyers can choose between a fugative PR83 or another color that looks like PR83 but is permantly.
                        There are a lot of reds available, you are right, but I want to find that particular red that looks like PR83 and is permanent because I love the color of the fugative PR83 , had become used to using that particular shade of red and really want to use it.
                        I don’t know if that makes any sense….( I didn’t sleep well last night and feel so fog headed today!!)

                        Teresa
                        Saint Ragdoll

                        #1246693
                        Minerva C
                        Default

                            How about WN Sanguine Red? LE from the Twilight range. It looks similar but I do not use A C. Just have a tube that came in a set.

                            C

                            #1246683

                            Marialena, I agree with you 100%. None of my Students have ever used PR83, so they haven’t experienced the value range and depth of this pigment. I wish that the Manufacturers called their new formulas something different. Paint Names are so useless.

                            Permanent Alizarin Crimson comes in many flavours:

                            [B]Da Vinci[/B] – PV19 Quinacridone Violet
                            [B]Daniel Smith[/B] – PR177—Anthraquinone Red/PR149—Perylene Red/PV19—Quinacridone Violet
                            [B]Holbein[/B] – PR122—Quinacridone Magenta
                            [B]M. Graham[/B] – PR264—Pyrrole Rubine
                            [B]QoR[/B] – PR177—Anthraquinone Red
                            [B]Sennelier[/B] – PR206—Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red
                            [B]Winsor & Newton[/B] – PR206—Quinacridone Pyrrolidine Red

                            So, when I ask my Students to reach for their Permanent Alizarin Crimson paint name, the results can be very different!

                            I have used it, back in the 80’s when I didn’t know that it was fugitive. Then I realized this in practice :lol: ( my beautiful reds abandoned my paintings :lol: it’s funny).

                            So I know how Alizarin Crimson looks like and what kind of mixes gives, but a colour that is not stable is not a colour at all..

                            Anyway.. I have in my palette PV19 ( on both its versions, as a Red Violet and as a Quin. Rose- i some were too lazy to give a different name on these two different pigment colours) and I have also the PR 264 the Pyrrole Red ( that usually is called as Madder Lake that is another name for Alizarin Crimson, but don’t get confused we are not talking about the original Alizarin!! :lol: ) and trust me none of them, and none of the list that you posted here is the same with the original Alizarin Crimson.

                            They are completely different pigments and colours. The fact is that there is no substitute for Alizarin Crimson BUT we don’t need it in the end of the day.. :lol:

                            #1246684

                            Marialena,
                            For those of us who used the fugative Alizrin Crimson, we becaue used to that particular red and for using it in mixes. So we look for another pigment, or mix of pigments, that will look as close as possinle to the old PR83 and behave similarly in mixes.

                            There is not such alternative. Even if you find a colour that is similar to PR83 will behave differently on its mixes because it will contain a pigment made from different components. ( or how these are called)

                            But if there is a demand for a paint that resembles one of those hues, like artists demanding a permantly color that looks like the fugative PR83, then paint manufacturers have a reason to add that color to their lines so buyers can choose between a fugative PR83 or another color that looks like PR83 but is permantly.

                            You talk about a very “sensitive” matter here. As there is a demand about PR83 companies keep on selling it without warning their buyers, I’m talking about the artists, that this pigment is fugitive. It depends on every single artist to know that, but no matter what the paints with the fugitive pigment are still available while they shouldn’t.

                            The real losers of course of all this matter, between the artists and the art material companies are the final buyers of the artworks that pay for something that will disappear in time. This wouldn’t be acceptable in any other case, for example for the car market.. It would be unacceptable to buy a car made of parts that would vanish in the long run, the quality control starts in this market from the supply of raw materials, but is acceptable for the supply of raw materials of the art market though the amounts of money that are invested in art are probably higher than those that are invested, by individuals in auto-mobiles.

                            There are a lot of reds available, you are right, but I want to find that particular red that looks like PR83 and is permanent because I love the color of the fugative PR83 , had become used to using that particular shade of red and really want to use it.

                            There is no substitute. Sorry to disappoint you but you will not find it.

                            I don’t know if that makes any sense….( I didn’t sleep well last night and feel so fog headed today!!)

                            Don’t worry Teresa.. I have this foggy mind for the last three weeks. :lol:

                            #1246685

                            How about WN Sanguine Red? LE from the Twilight range. It looks similar but I do not use A C. Just have a tube that came in a set.

                            [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/13-Feb-2016/1969738-20160213_193507-1.jpg[/IMG]

                            Nope.. :) :p This is not Alizarin Crimson colour.. not even close.

                            Don’t look for it you will not find it. Alizarin Crimson is a brilliant red that has purplish and rose undertones that I can’t describe them, and I can’t post them here because: 1/ I don’t have any PO 83 here, 2/ the scanner is currently unavailable, but also 3/ unable to catch the exact colour.

                            #1246694
                            Minerva C
                            Default

                                On paper in daylight the difference between S R and A C is much smaller than the difference between AC and Permanent A C which is more bright and bluish. The photo does not show S R correctly. It is actually a little odd to call the permanent version Alizarin Crimson.

                                C

                                #1246686

                                The problem is not in the slight differences under very bright light, that are inevitable, but in the mixes. Original Alizarin Crimson gives different mixes than the supposed alternatives. I don’t have the Sanguin Red but I bet that if you mix this and the AC with the same colours the final results will be different.

                                BUT ..why should this be a problem? I don’t think that AC is so much better than other reds and as I said previously for me is like never existed. A colour that fades is not considered as colour for me. It is considered as a crap raw art material.

                                Next please! ;)

                                #1246692
                                Pappyspop
                                Default

                                    Will someone kindly define “fugitive” as referring to watercolor…

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