Home Forums The Learning Center Color Theory and Mixing Alizarin Crimson substitutes

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  • #993948
    SamL
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        Which pigments do you use to substitute natural Alizarin Crimson (for the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits)?

        #1249101
        Gigalot
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            I use Cobalt Violet Light and Cadmiums, but many artists like PR177 Antraquinoid Red.

            #1249092
            Mythrill
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                Which pigments do you use to substitute natural Alizarin Crimson (for the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits)?

                Sam, there are many threads here on Wetcanvas discussing Alizarin’s permanence and replacements:

                  [*]https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1366898
                  [*]https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364048https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526982
                  [*]https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1392542

                In a nutshell, your choices are:

                  [*]Anthraquinone Red (PR 177), recommended by Giga on this post: the single-pigment that’s the closest you’ll ever be to the real deal, being only a bit lighter and more saturated. The reason it’s so close is that it’s a chemical cousin. Some brands are less reliable than others, so keep an eye on the particular brand you choose.
                  [*]Transparent Pyrrole Rubine (PR 264): The transparent version of Pyrrole Rubine is very close to the real thing as well. In acrylics, Golden has an opaque version, but it behaves instead as an alternative to Cadmium Red Deep (PR 108).
                  [*]Quinacridone Red or Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma): slightly different in hue, but very close in mixing, being only a bit bluer. If you want a replacement to Alizarin, then prefer Quinacridone Red, which is warmer.
                  [*]Quinacridone Magenta (PR 122) + Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) or Quinacridone Burnt Orange (PR 206) or Perylene Maroon (PR 179): Quinacridone Magenta is slightly more lightfast on the average than Quinacridone Red / Permanent Rose. It might also be easier to find.
                #1249105
                MikeH53
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                    There are also perylene maroon (PR 179), which is similar to alizarin in masstone and glazes, just a bit warmer, however in tints it shifts strongly toward yellow, so it might not be very good for mixing purples, and co-precipitated quinacridone-pyrrolidone (no PR number) which is only offered in oils by Winsor and Newton as “permanent carmine”, it is nearly identical to anthraquinone red, but a touch bluer.

                    [FONT=Verdana]"bright colors are ill advised and should always be avoided"

                    #1249093
                    Mythrill
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                        There are also perylene maroon (PR 179), which is similar to alizarin in masstone and glazes, just a bit warmer, however in tints it shifts strongly toward yellow, so it might not be very good for mixing purples, and co-precipitated quinacridone-pyrrolidone (no PR number) which is only offered in oils by Winsor and Newton as “permanent carmine”, it is nearly identical to anthraquinone red, but a touch bluer.

                        Mike, Perylene Maroon (PR 179) by itself is a bit too brown and too yellowish. It might work in masstone, but it certainly doesn’t work in mixes. It is more effective paired with up instead with Quinacridone Red (PV 19-gamma) to warm it up and dull it down a bit.

                        #1249107
                        SamL
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                            In a nutshell, your choices are:

                            [LIST]
                            [*]Anthraquinone Red (PR 177): the single-pigment that’s the closest you’ll ever be to the real deal, being only a bit lighter and more saturated. The reason it’s so close is that it’s a chemical cousin. Some brands are less reliable than others.[/LIST]
                            [LIST]
                            [*]Quinacridone Red [B][I]or [/I][/B]Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma): slightly different in hue, but very close in mixing, being only a bit bluer.[/LIST]

                            Has anyone used the following two paints?

                            Which one did you find more suitable for mixing healthy pink skin tone?

                              [*]Anthraquinone Red (PR 177)
                              Winsor & Newton Artists’ Oil Colors – Permanent Alizarin Crimson
                              [*]Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma)
                              Winsor & Newton Artists’ Oil Colors – Permanent Rose
                            #1249094
                            Mythrill
                            Default

                                Has anyone used the following two paints?

                                Which one did you find more suitable for mixing healthy pink skin tone?
                                [LIST]
                                [*][B]Anthraquinone Red (PR 177)[/B]
                                Winsor & Newton Artists’ Oil Colors – Permanent Alizarin Crimson[/LIST][LIST]
                                [*][B]Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma)[/B]
                                Winsor & Newton Artists’ Oil Colors – Permanent Rose[/LIST]

                                Surprisingly enough, you’ll probably find Red Iron Oxide (PR 101, opaque) more suitable for skin tones. It’s a long story. But, as an Alizarin replacement, either color above should work fine, with Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma) being more versatile.

                                #1249106
                                opainter
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                                    To match the actual lower-chroma color of Caucasian skin, Mythrill’s idea of using PR101 seems to be your best choice. PR206 is also lower in chroma, and could theoretically be used instead of PR101, but you may have a harder time in tinting PR206 down to a usable tint. On the other hand, PR206 would be my choice for painting a picture of a black person.

                                    AJ (opainter), C&C always welcome
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                                    #1249108
                                    SamL
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                                        Surprisingly enough, you’ll probably find Red Iron Oxide (PR 101, opaque) more suitable for skin tones. It’s a long story.

                                        I am curious, why PR179 (Perylene Maroon) does not work for the healthy pink skin tone, but PR101 (Red Iron Oxide) does?

                                        Perylene Maroon (PR 179) by itself is a bit too brown and too yellowish. It [B][I]might [/I][/B]work in masstone, but it certainly doesn’t work in mixes.

                                        I think the reason that PR179 does not work is that, comparing to natural Alizarin Crimson, PR179 is too brown and too yellowish.

                                        I extended the Handprint picture to include PR101. It shows that PR101 is even more brown and more yellowist than PR179.

                                        Why PR179 does not work, but PR101 works?

                                        #1249095
                                        Mythrill
                                        Default

                                            I am curious, why PR179 (Perylene Maroon) does not work for the healthy pink skin tone, but PR101 (Red Iron Oxide) does?

                                            But your first question wasn’t about how to paint skin tones, but what could be used to replace Alizarin Crimson (PR 83). My first answer was in response to that. If you are talking about skin tones, Perylene Maroon (PR 179) might work. But I’m not sure it’ll work by itself.

                                            Now, the reason Opaque Red Iron Oxide (PR 101) works so well to make skin tones is that it reduces to a soft, natural pink when mixed with white. This pink is very close to what you would see on human skin. And if it doesn’t work by itself, then paired up with other earth colors, such as Yellow Iron Oxide (PY 42), it probably will.

                                            I think the reason that PR179 does not work is that, comparing to natural Alizarin Crimson, PR179 is too brown and too yellowish.

                                            Yes, that’s what I said. But it only applies as a general Alizarin Crimson replacement.

                                            I extended the Handprint picture to include PR101. It shows that PR101 is even more brown and more yellowist than PR179.

                                            [IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/28-Mar-2016/1963670-PR101.JPG[/IMG]

                                            Why PR179 does not work, but PR101 works?

                                            Neither works on its own as an Alizarin replacement. They work paired up with a magenta color, such as Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma) or Quinacridone Magenta (PR 122) to make them warmer and a bit duller. This makes these magentas closer in hue and mixing behavior to Alizarin.

                                            #1249098
                                            llawrence
                                            Default

                                                Which pigments do you use to substitute natural Alizarin Crimson (for the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits)?

                                                Rose madder genuine. Unless that’s what you meant by “natural” alizarin crimson.

                                                #1249109
                                                SamL
                                                Default

                                                    [B]But your first question wasn’t about how to paint skin tones[/B], but what could be used to replace Alizarin Crimson (PR 83).

                                                    Here is my first question (see the 1st post of the thread)

                                                    Which pigments do you use to substitute natural Alizarin Crimson ([B]for the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits[/B])?

                                                    For the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits, which of the following pigments did you find as the best substitute for natural Alizarin Crimson?

                                                      [*]Anthraquinone Red (PR 177)
                                                      Maybe the hue is closest to the natural Alizarin Crimson, but lightfastness is not the strongest among the Alizarin Crimson substitutes?
                                                      [*]Permanent Rose (PV 19-gamma)
                                                      Maybe the hue is a bit far from natural Alizarin Crimson, leaning towards blue?
                                                      [*]Perylene Maroon (PR 179)
                                                      Maybe a little too brown and too yellowish by itself?
                                                      [*]Red Iron Oxide (PR 101, opaque)
                                                      Even more brown and more yellowish than PR179, but the hue changes to more pinkish when mixed with white?
                                                    #1249086
                                                    Patrick1
                                                    Default

                                                        [I]For the purpose of painting skin tone in portraits, which of the following pigments did you find as the best substitute for natural Alizarin Crimson?[/I]

                                                        As for single-pigment substitutes, you may or may not find one that is satisfactory. If you’re open to a good permanent Alizarin Crimson mix (i.e. a ‘hue’) rather than a single-pigment, you’ll likely be able to get closer to matching the real thing in terms of color. Probably not indistinguishable side-by-side (masstone-undertone-tints), but essentially the same color for all practical purposes.

                                                        The ones which best match the deep color of real Alizarin often use PR206 as one of the 2 main ingredients (along with something like PR122), but Transparent Red Iron Oxide (PR101) might also work well. Gamblin’s Permanent Alizarin Crimson – which I haven’t seen/used in-person but it supposed to be a good one – is PR177 + PG36.

                                                        #1249111
                                                        KeeverMacLeod
                                                        Default

                                                            I find that looking for Alizarin Crimson substitutes is generally a waste of time when the real thing works so well, but there are a few options:

                                                            1) Perylene Maroon – most permanent, but too dull for my tastes, but Permalba offers a good, cheap version.
                                                            2) Anthraquinone Red – Winsor Newton offers the most permanent version
                                                            3) Quinacridone Pyrrolidone – Winsor Newton offers it. Good color, cheaper than Anthraquinone.
                                                            4) Pyrrole Crimson – Too ruby-red and opaque for my tastes. Works better in watercolor than oils. Blockx offers it, so does Rembrandt.
                                                            5) Benzimidazolone Carmine – Rembrandt offers it as carmine. A little dull, a little too opaque.

                                                            If you’re okay with a convenience mix, the closest match in masstone and highlights is Gamblin’s Alizarin Permanent, made with Anthraquinone and Phthalo Green YS. Weber’s Alizarin Crimson Permanent is pretty close too.

                                                            Or you could be like me and just use the real thing.


                                                            #1249096
                                                            Mythrill
                                                            Default

                                                                4) Pyrrole Crimson – Too ruby-red and opaque for my tastes. Works better in watercolor than oils. Blockx offers it, so does Rembrandt.

                                                                Keever, there’s an opaque and a transparent version. Golden, for example, carries the opaque version in their acrylics. This opaque version is a replacement to Cadium Red Deep (PR 108) instead. If you want a convincing Alizarin (PR 83) substitute, get the transparent Pyrrole Crimson (PR 264).

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