Home Forums Explore Media Oil Painting The Technical Forum Making your own Flake White

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  • #987058
    Alex Sunder
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        Hello everybody!

        Heres my deal: Im needing a fast drying white, with some nice handling properties that would make a nice impasto. What im looking for, is the same properties of the white used in Rembrandt´s impasto.

        Im aware that somekind of lead paint would be used in order to get that kind of effect. So, i guess what im looking for is the famous Flake White, or, Cremnitz White.

        Unfortunally, i dont have any credicard, so, it´s gonna be a major problem to buy overseas. Here in my country, theres no such thing as this paints. So, i guess that if i wanna use that, i will have to make my own. No problem with that. I have plenty of space, time, safety materials and the will. As a matter of fact, i think would be extremelly fun to try to make my own, like an extra.

        So, i dont wanna spend time doing something that will NOT offer something waaaay different from what im already using. I mean, i work adding many siccatives (mix of calcium, zirconium and cobalt) on my titanium and zinc, but they dont seem to dry too fast, neither giving that kind of nice impasto.

        What i would like to know from you guys is:

        Whats your experience with paint based on lead? Is it worth to make my own?

        Thanks everybody!
        ALEX

        #1099995
        Daniel_OB
        Default

            If you cannot get good Cremnitz White make it. It pays to have it. If you make in Linseed oil use minimum oil you can and will not yellow. Always add around max 10% Zinc to further reduce yellowing, but if you do not have Zinc White not a big deal.
            Again, as a painter yu mast have this white.

            #1099991
            TheBaron
            Default

                This might be of some interest?

                https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425281

                George:I reckon Picasso couldn't do jigsaws as a child
                Oil Painting - WetCanvas!
                The MIO is this way------->https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599820)

                #1099893
                Brian Firth
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                    Just so you know, if you make your own lead white, it is not fast drying. Modern basic lead carbonate pigment is very pure and does not contain the impurities that caused the paint to dry fast. The lead white I have made dries on an average of about 5 to 7 days. Most modern manufacturers add driers to their flake white paints to match the traditional fast drying characteristics. I would suggest you try Winsor and Newton’s Cremnitz white for a good creamy thick white (which is fast drying) or Old Holland’s Cremnitz white for a thicker dense white.

                    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
                    -- Carl Sagan

                    Brian Firth

                    #1100007

                    I read two things I cannot agree with;

                    -first to add zinc in your lead white; don’t! It will not reduce yellowing. Choose an oil that will yellow less, like walnut oil. I use a Lead white with poppy oil (Blockx) and is does not seem to yellow at all, very bright in color. My OH Lead does yellow some (linseed). A second about Zinc pigment to take in consideration is the recent research about it’s brittleness, even used in small amounts. This might be something to keep in mind.

                    -second; todays lead does not dry any faster and contain driers to make ‘m dry faster.. eh? what?!! I don’t know where you get this info from. (Please tell me) To my best knowledge this is absolutely not true. Some manufactures like W&N put zinc in their flake white, zinc dries slow. (Maybe W&N puts driers in their flake to speed up drying?…)

                    #1099996
                    Daniel_OB
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                        Danny
                        Zinc White has around 10 times lower elongation than Lead. Its britleness, used alone, comes out after some 7-14 years of drying. Mixed with around 10% with lead will not noticable change elongation of Lead, so there is no britlenes issue with 90% Lead + 10 Zinc (you can do some simple math, it works). Further Zinc holds oil within the “mass”, that is not pushing it on the surface (even Lead does it less than Ti), and it is why yellowing is reduced. Zinc has and some further “good news” when used with many of other common pigments. However Linsed oil used a lot will yellow. To detect such yellowing you probably will nedd color temperature meter, or your mind should be concentated on yellowing. Where paints are stored to see it, yellowing comes more from nature of light (its color temperature) and surface protection layer (e.g. Damar). Further, among other things, no other oil has, say, strength and elasticity of linsed oil film.

                        #1099992
                        Mark Sheeky
                        Default

                            I read two things I cannot agree with;

                            -first to add zinc in your lead white; don’t! It will not reduce yellowing. Choose an oil that will yellow less, like walnut oil. I use a Lead white with poppy oil (Blockx) and is does not seem to yellow at all, very bright in color. My OH Lead does yellow some (linseed). A second about Zinc pigment to take in consideration is the recent research about it’s brittleness, even used in small amounts. This might be something to keep in mind.

                            -second; todays lead does not dry any faster and contain driers to make ‘m dry faster.. eh? what?!! I don’t know where you get this info from. (Please tell me) To my best knowledge this is absolutely not true. Some manufactures like W&N put zinc in their flake white, zinc dries slow. (Maybe W&N puts driers in their flake to speed up drying?…)

                            I agree with just about everything here. The zinc-brittleness research has been hotly debated here. Personally I’m not convinced, partly because the impressionists favoured zinc and used lots of it, and one bit of research isn’t enough to disregard 100 years of successful use.

                            Michael Harding seems to favour a bit of zinc in the whites to prevent the oil seeping to the surface which can accentuate any yellowing (ref: the MH website).

                            I’ve not heard of a paint company adding dryers to any colour, can anyone indicate otherwise?

                            I’ve taken a look at your work Danny, good stuff!

                            Mark

                            Website: www.marksheeky.com
                            Twitter: @marksheeky

                            #1099894
                            Brian Firth
                            Default

                                Danny,
                                It is well documented on wetcanvas, by many sources, besides myself, that modern flake white is not a drying pigment. I have the pigment and have made it plenty of times, it is not fast drying. See this link for a paint manufacturers opinion on lead white’s lack of drying power: https://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425281

                                Also another link to my discussions with Mark Gottsegen about my personal discovery of the truth about modern lead white:
                                http://www.amien.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63

                                It is also common knowledge that most manufacturers add driers to their oil paints. Natural Pigments and Michael Harding are the only two that state they do not, that I know of. For example, if a company sells dioxazine violet PV23 in oils, they must use driers, as this is one example of a paint that will not dry without driers. Lamp black is another pigment that needs driers added to it, or it could take months to dry.

                                Once you experiment with making your own paints you get a much more clear picture of how the pigments truly behave, and also understand how much formulation goes on at most paint companies.

                                "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
                                -- Carl Sagan

                                Brian Firth

                                #1099958
                                Smokin
                                Default

                                    Im not yet convinced that Lead Carbonate is not a fast drier, Im currently trying to find the right source to by some so I can try making my own batch to check out.

                                    Brian, Im curious what ratio of oil to pigment you used to make your lead white. Do you write this down and measure, if so could you share?

                                    Lead oxide and lead acetate are oxidizers and will speed the dring time of any oil paint including lead carbonate, but considering it a pro or con is subjective.

                                    Once you experiment with making your own paints you get a much more clear picture of how the pigments truly behave, and also understand how much formulation goes on at most paint companies.

                                    Very true.

                                    C&C always welcomed. Frank
                                    www.MyDigitalWorkshop.com

                                    #1099997
                                    Daniel_OB
                                    Default

                                        Mark
                                        “I’ve taken a look at your work Danny, good stuff!”

                                        Me to: I’ve taken a look at your work Danny, super good stuff! :wave: Just need a little more work to distinguish mediums outside paintings. It is our duty too.
                                        Daniel OB

                                        #1100020
                                        WV.Artistry
                                        Default

                                            I use Winsor & Newton Flake White . . viscosity is like joint compound (thick). It has some transparency, noticeable when used thin. Dries fast. Downside, slightly greys a color if used as a mixer — I use something else for a mixer when I can, i.e., a pale yellow. Suggest mixing 80% flake 20% titanium.

                                            I’m sure you can get Winsor & Newton Flake White in Brazil.

                                            Visitex Sa
                                            Rua Major Sertorio 447
                                            01222 Sao Paolo Sp
                                            Sao Paolo
                                            Brazil
                                            Tel: + 55 11 257 6800
                                            Fax: + 55 11 231 2787
                                            Winsor & Newton Distributor

                                            Richard

                                            #1099993
                                            Mark Sheeky
                                            Default

                                                It is also common knowledge that most manufacturers add driers to their oil paints. Natural Pigments and Michael Harding are the only two that state they do not, that I know of. For example, if a company sells dioxazine violet PV23 in oils, they must use driers, as this is one example of a paint that will not dry without driers. Lamp black is another pigment that needs driers added to it, or it could take months to dry.

                                                I’m not arguing with this, I know little about paint manufacturing, but I don’t like the term common knowledge. I’d prefer to know where the common knowledge is written. Michael Harding sells lamp black… paradox alert. I find it hard to believe that lamp black requires driers but as I said I know little about paint manufacturing.

                                                Mark

                                                Website: www.marksheeky.com
                                                Twitter: @marksheeky

                                                #1099895
                                                Brian Firth
                                                Default

                                                    Im not yet convinced that Lead Carbonate is not a fast drier, Im currently trying to find the right source to by some so I can try making my own batch to check out.

                                                    You can buy good quality lead white pigment from Natural Pigments to experiment for yourself.

                                                    Brian, Im curious what ratio of oil to pigment you used to make your lead white. Do you write this down and measure, if so could you share?

                                                    I do not have a specific proportion I use. It really depends on how I want the paint to perform. Sometimes, I make it real thick and pasty, other times smooth and creamy. However, I would say in general I use about a 100 to 20 ratio of pigment to oil. I have mulled it in poppy oil, walnut, safflower, and linseed oil and they all took about a week or longer to dry, regardless of the amount of oil used.

                                                    Lead oxide and lead acetate are oxidizers and will speed the dring time of any oil paint including lead carbonate, but considering it a pro or con is subjective.

                                                    These are the very impurities that used to be present in flake white that made it a fast drying pigment. Modern environmental standards, along with advances in manufacturing technologies, have lead to the production of very pure lead white pigments that do not have these impurities and are no longer fast drying.

                                                    I’m not arguing with this, I know little about paint manufacturing, but I don’t like the term common knowledge. I’d prefer to know where the common knowledge is written. Michael Harding sells lamp black… paradox alert. I find it hard to believe that lamp black requires driers but as I said I know little about paint manufacturing.

                                                    I guess by common knowledge I was referring to the fact that many books on oil painting I have, Max Doerner, Kurt Whelte, etc., state that manufacturers add driers to their colors to make them dry within a range of time. Some manufactures admit it outright, like Lukas Oils, which states they use a combination of three driers to make all their colors dry within 3 days. Michael Harding’s Lamp Black is curious, particularly because he rates it as average drying. Lamp black, because of its very small particle size, is sometimes mulled with a calcium drier which helps disperse the pigment. He could be using something like that and not considering it a drier because it is being used as a dispersant, or the pigment manufacturer he purchases his pigment from could add drier to their lamp black because of it’s extremely slow drying. There are many variables, but pure lamp black does make a very slow drying oil paint. As a point of reference, here is a link to R&F Paint which rate their lamp blacks as “off the chart” slow drying: http://www.rfpaints.com/6-ColorCharts/Blacks.htm

                                                    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
                                                    -- Carl Sagan

                                                    Brian Firth

                                                    #1099916
                                                    georgeoh
                                                    Default

                                                        Im aware that somekind of lead paint would be used in order to get that kind of effect. So, i guess what im looking for is the famous Flake White, or, Cremnitz White.

                                                        Please be aware that Flake white and Cremnitz white are both fanciful terms that do not have real meaning today and are applied to various formulations of lead white (basic lead carbonate) by artists materials manufacturers. The term flake white used to designate the form of the lead white as it appeared on the lead strips in the Dutch stack process. Cremnitz is a term applied to lead white manufactured in Krems, Austria. This has no meaning in commerce today because only one artists’ materials manufacturer makes genuine flake white and there is no lead production in Krems.

                                                        Lead white is not a fast drying oil paint per se, but because lead white typically absorbs very little oil in order to make a paste paint, it will dry faster than most colors on the palette. However, this is dependent upon the manufacturer’s formulation of the paint, because the addition of extenders and additives will affect the amount of oil absorbed and the consistency of the paint. For example, aluminum stearate is often added to artists’ oil colors to “puff” or thicken the paint and prevent pigment sedimentation. However, if modern lead white is ground in linseed oil with high acid value, the oil to pigment ratio can be as little as 9.5 grams oil to 100 grams pigment. This makes a lead white paint that is ropey and dries faster than most lead white oil paint, unless driers are added to the paint.

                                                        It is difficult to say what the distinction today between flake white and Cremnitz white is among the different manufacturers, because there is no standards that apply to those names.

                                                        In regards to comments about zinc oxide in oil paint, present research by the Smithsonian Institute and other organizations indicate that zinc oxide is responsible for embrittlement of oil paint films. Although there are examples of paintings, such as those by the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, where zinc oxide was used extensively in the painting, it does not mean that zinc oxide can be safely used by artists today.

                                                        George O'Hanlon
                                                        #1099917
                                                        georgeoh
                                                        Default

                                                            Always add around max 10% Zinc to further reduce yellowing, but if you do not have Zinc White not a big deal.

                                                            Zinc oxide added to oil paint does not actually reduce or lessen yellowing, if by writing that you mean the color retention of the paint film once it dries and hardens. Zinc oxide does counteract the initial yellow color of the drying oil because of its spectral response curve in white light and this is the main reason why it is often added to white oil colors.

                                                            George O'Hanlon
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