Home › Forums › Explore Media › Watercolor › The Learning Zone › Rose Madder – WN vs. DS
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January 18, 2020 at 3:50 pm #482840
I want to get some rose madder of higher quality than my Cotman. I purchased the Cotman as a test and I like it the color.
Winsor & Newton (WN) sells RM “Genuine” while Daniel Smith (DS) calls it RM “Permanent”. Are these the same pigments?
Do you all have thoughts and opinions to share? The DS is about $6 cheaper, and I own and am happy with my other DS tubes.
Thomas
January 18, 2020 at 4:09 pm #934724The websites for those two brands both list the pigments and have color samples. Have you checked those?
Marshall
Living the retired life in NE FloridaJanuary 18, 2020 at 4:15 pm #934725Winsor & Newton is NR9 – http://www.winsornewton.com/na/shop/water-colour/professional-water-colour
Daniel Smith is PR 209, PV 19, PR 202 – http://danielsmith.com/rose-madder-permanent-15ml-tube-daniel-smith-extra-fine-watercolor/
Marshall
Living the retired life in NE FloridaJanuary 18, 2020 at 4:18 pm #934716The websites for those two brands both list the pigments and have color samples. Have you checked those?
I did check the color charts, but am not sure I am reading the pigments correctly as these make them seem like *completely* different paints. I know “hue” denotes using pigments that mimic the actual color…but the DS does not say hue.
January 18, 2020 at 4:19 pm #934717Winsor & Newton is NR9 – [url]http://www.winsornewton.com/na/shop/water-colour/professional-water-colour[/url]
Daniel Smith is PR 209, PV 19, PR 202 – [url]http://danielsmith.com/rose-madder-permanent-15ml-tube-daniel-smith-extra-fine-watercolor/[/url]
To my point above…NR 9 vs.
What does it really all mean?
January 18, 2020 at 6:14 pm #934715What it means is this:
WN pigment is NR9
Daniel Smith is Pigments: PR 209, PV 19, PR 202NR9= Natural Red (NR) 9, it is the pigment used in WN Rose Madder
Daniel Smith uses:
PR209=Pigment Red 209, quinacridone red
PV19=Pigment Violate 19, quinacridone rose
PR202=Pigment Red 202, Quinacridone magentaForget about the common names the company’s name the pigments, it is marketing hype and tells you nothing about the pigment ingredients in the colors. The pigment codes, which are broken down, are the pigment ingredients that make up the color. It is the best way to know what pigments you have, because the company’s “should” list them on the label. When a historical pigment like Rose Madder or Manganese blue are re-worked, they should have a close color resemblance to the original color, but hopefully using more permanent pigments. These are called Hues, nova and any other name to tip you off that they are not the historical pigment, which is not light fast, discontinued or reformulated.
January 18, 2020 at 8:03 pm #934718Thank you, Steve. Great explanation.
I should infer that the one pigment is better than the blend of three, yes?
Thomas
What it means is this:
WN pigment is NR9
Daniel Smith is Pigments: PR 209, PV 19, PR 202NR9= Natural Red (NR) 9, it is the pigment used in WN Rose Madder
Daniel Smith uses:
PR209=Pigment Red 209, quinacridone red
PV19=Pigment Violate 19, quinacridone rose
PR202=Pigment Red 202, Quinacridone magentaForget about the common names the company’s name the pigments, it is marketing hype and tells you nothing about the pigment ingredients in the colors. The pigment codes, which are broken down, are the pigment ingredients that make up the color. It is the best way to know what pigments you have, because the company’s “should” list them on the label. When a historical pigment like Rose Madder or Manganese blue are re-worked, they should have a close color resemblance to the original color, but hopefully using more permanent pigments. These are called Hues, nova and any other name to tip you off that they are not the historical pigment, which is not light fast, discontinued or reformulated.
January 18, 2020 at 8:18 pm #934721Thank you, Steve. Great explanation.
I should infer that the one pigment is better than the blend of three, yes?
Thomas
in this case, not really, like most organic pigment, rose madder genuine isnt lightfast, so it’ll fade overtime.
generally most people has move on to the permanent option, usually called Permanent Rose which is PV19 also know as Quinacridone Rose or Quinacridone Red.
Dont know why daniel smith uses 3 pigment to create permanent rose, all other brand just uses PV19.
so if you want a single pigment permanent option of rose madder, just go with Permanent Rose or Quinacridone Rose\Red (PV19)..
January 18, 2020 at 9:00 pm #934719Similar transparency?
Thomas
in this case, not really, like most organic pigment, rose madder genuine isnt lightfast, so it’ll fade overtime.
generally most people has move on to the permanent option, usually called Permanent Rose which is PV19 also know as Quinacridone Rose or Quinacridone Red.
Dont know why daniel smith uses 3 pigment to create permanent rose, all other brand just uses PV19.
so if you want a single pigment permanent option of rose madder, just go with Permanent Rose or Quinacridone Rose\Red (PV19)..
January 18, 2020 at 9:43 pm #934714From Handprint:
[INDENT]Genuine rose madder NR9 is a fugitive, transparent, nonstaining, mid valued, moderately dull violet red pigment in tints and medium solutions, darkening to an impermanent, dull magenta red in mass tone. The pigment actually contains two unique dyes, the fugitive, fiery orange purpurin and the impermanent, bluish red alizarin. Like alizarin crimson (PR83), rose madder is widely acknowledged to be a fugitive pigment. The ASTM (1999) rates its lightfastness in watercolors as “poor” (IV), as you can see from the comparable results in my own tests (right).
The Winsor & Newton rose madder genuine, which is still manufactured using the cumbersome and time consuming traditional method of dye processing, has a fairly bright and clear color flecked with interesting bits of vegetable matter; the paint dissolves reluctantly and is relatively weak even in mass tone. The Daniel Smith paint is surprisingly dark, dull and fugitive by comparison, and does not seem to represent the color appearance of the historical pigment.
AVOID. Rose madder is still occasionally recommended by the “old master” generation of workshop artists, although it is indisputably too fugitive for professional artistic work. Readily replaced by quinacridone rose (PV19) or quinacridone magenta (PR122 or PR202), modulated if desired by a thin glaze or addition of pyrrole orange (PO73) to simulate the effect of the purpurin dye. See also the section on natural organic pigments.[/INDENT]
Char --
CharMing Art -- "Where the spirit does not work with the hand, there is no art." Leonardo DaVinci
January 18, 2020 at 9:44 pm #934726The problem I see with the Daniel Smith version is that with tree different pigments if you re going to mix it with another color you may end up with too many pigments causing muddy looking mess.
Check this link for more information on the pigments and how each brand names their colors – https://www.dropbox.com/s/dljvwz1pqdyb22c/Watercolor%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Marshall
Living the retired life in NE FloridaJanuary 18, 2020 at 9:46 pm #934722Similar transparency?
Thomas
same transparency.. the only differ is tinting strength, liftability and light fastness. all quinacridone pigment are lightfast, transparent, high tinting and staining.
January 19, 2020 at 6:11 am #934720I’m now a little over a year into watercolors and am just now really beginning to understand concepts like ‘fugitive’. (I now have to find a substitute for my alizarin crimson!)
Thomas
January 19, 2020 at 8:19 am #934727I’m now a little over a year into watercolors and am just now really beginning to understand concepts like ‘fugitive’. (I now have to find a substitute for my alizarin crimson!)
Thomas
I know MGraham makes both Alizarin Crimson and a permanent version. I think several other companies do too.
Marshall
Living the retired life in NE FloridaJanuary 19, 2020 at 11:02 am #934728same transparency.. the only differ is tinting strength, liftability and light fastness. all quinacridone pigment are lightfast, transparent, high tinting and staining.
So does that mean that I should prefer quinacridone based paints over non quinacridone paints if there is an option?
Marshall
Living the retired life in NE Florida -
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