Home Forums The Learning Center Composition and Design Applying PHI (Golden Ratio) to a non-standard size

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  • #461089
    forrie
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        I’m learning the use of PHI in art. The various roots, baroque diagonal, etc. It’s a bit complex, but I’m eager to begin using these in my work.

        One thing I have not seen answered anywhere is how to apply PHI (whichever root you use, 1.333, 1.618, etc) to a non-standard size surface. That is, a painting surface that doesn’t accurately correspond to one of those roots. Take for example a surface I have now, which measures 53 x 40″. This more closely works with 1.333 (1.325 is what mine reduces to). But then, I could always just draw an accurate root 1.618 space onto this surface, using the leftover margin as “dead space”.

        Surely the old masters ran into this from time to time.

        I’ve also thought about getting a PC/Mac projector and simply projecting the desired root onto my surfaces and tracing from there, to save me the monotonous task of measuring, etc.

        I’d appreciate any feedback. I could be over thinking this as well, since I’m still learning the theories. But, I am a perfectionist and I like accuracy :)

        Thank you.

        #682827
        bongo
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            Take for example a surface I have now, which measures 53 x 40″. This more closely works with 1.333 (1.325 is what mine reduces to). But then, I could always just draw an accurate root 1.618 space onto this surface, using the leftover margin as “dead space”.

            Surely the old masters ran into this from time to time.

            I’ve also thought about getting a PC/Mac projector and simply projecting the desired root onto my surfaces and tracing from there, to save me the monotonous task of measuring, etc.
            Thank you.

            If you think measuring is monotonous, you’ll find setting up a projector even more so.

            IMO 1.325 is close enough to 1.33! The best solution is to start with a support that closely approximates the ratio you need. “Dead space” can work sometimes. There are a lot of great paintings that are square and others that are panoramic and all points in between. The golden ratio is not the set-in-cement ratio but just one of many guides.

            http://s3.amazonaws.com/wetcanvas-hdc/Community/images/18-Sep-2019/1999899-sigsmall.jpg
            STUDIOBONGO

            #682825
            forrie
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                I’ve done a lot of homework since my post. I’m a techie, so setting up a simple projector is simple. I’m wondering what recommendations anyone might have for this application. I see a lot of “HD” projectors out there that seem to be geared toward movies, which I don’t need.

                All you need to do here is have your surface cut to the appropriate proportions, then project the root grid(s) onto your surface and trace. Doing this manually is really tedious.

                #682823
                virgil carter
                Default

                    Is it time to simply suggest using the rule of thirds, regardless of size and proportion of the paper…?

                    Keep it simple.

                    Sling paint,
                    Virgil

                    Sling paint,
                    Virgil Carter
                    http://www.virgilcarterfineart.com/

                    #682822

                    Keep it simple.

                    Yes, don’t bother with complex design schemes. I’ve seen very little evidence that “the old masters” used them extensively.

                    Just design compositions that please the eye. Get a feel for it. Incorporating the golden ratio won’t make your paintings magically look good. I cured myself from this way of designing a long time ago and I’m very glad I did. :lol:

                    #682832
                    m niland
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                        It doesn’t matter what the canvas size is, you can use the Golden Ratio (1.618) to divide the surface up and help start the compostion stage.

                        http://www.mniland.com
                        http://www.youtube.com/user/mnilandcom

                        #682833
                        zhm
                        Default

                            For a cheap art projector, look at Artograph sold at Michaels. It is just mirrors and lenses…no fancy digital stuff.

                            I know some artists that admit they cannot draw and use projectors all of the time. These are successful fine artists.

                            Camera obscura….didn’t they think that Vermeer, Carravagio, Ingres…used this equipment?

                            #682824
                            IanBertram
                            Default

                                It doesn’t matter what the canvas size is, you can use the Golden Ratio (1.618) to divide the surface up and help start the compostion stage.

                                Exactly – with a ruler and calculator you could have it divided up in less than a minute.

                                Ian
                                Website - https://ianbertramartist.uk
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                                #682830
                                Ted B.
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                                    The borders of a painting or drawing aren’t that important. Using the golden-mean or thirds or another Baroque compositional system to organize objects or points within the image will trump the borders…especially in a larger image.

                                    Where the additional “empty space” goes should support the narrative of the image. Seek a balance between centered and lopsided that strengthens the composition.

                                    Radical Fundemunsellist

                                    #682831
                                    Dorrart
                                    Default

                                        The easiest way to get the ratio is using the angle created by the diagonal. It will always be the same angle no matter how large or small. fasten a ruler to a protractor and place the angle then the lines drawn horizontal and vertical intersecting on the line will form two sides of the golden section. To use the golden section in odd sized canvases, place objects in locations that form the ratio in relation to some other object. The reason it is what it is is that humans seek that relationship and see it as attractive.

                                        - David

                                        "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." --Picasso

                                        #682826
                                        Mike L
                                        Default

                                            Perhaps try an online calculator? Here’s one that is easy to use and has a calculator for all the Goldens: ratio, triangle, spiral, and rectangle.

                                            https://oldmasters.academy/old-masters-academy-art-lessons/golden-ratio-calculator

                                            Practice religion freely and freedom religiously.

                                            #682828
                                            ptrkgmc
                                            Default

                                                We see in two-dimensions, … stereoscopically. If you don’t believe me look it up. Our minds creatively construe what we see as three-dimensional images. Use the creativity inherent in your brain, and stop trying to intellectualize. Its in us to do this intuitively already.

                                                #682829
                                                janecorrarino
                                                Default

                                                    Here’s an online calculator for calculating phi dimensions. Just put in one length of your canvas/paper and the phi breakdown is calculated. https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/math/goldenratio.php

                                                    There is also a good tutorial by Dianne Mize that tells you how to do this manually in a quick and easy lesson
                                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnZ0nzzUscs

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