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  • #993837

    I know there has been info on canvas rolls but I have a few questions.

    I would like to work on a giant roll of canvas that is perhaps 20 feet by 60 feet or so. I had the idea first of using wood panels but this would be too hard. I figure a canvas roll can be easily stored, now the questions.

    I was thinking of buying two 10 foot tall canvas rolls. Can two 10 foot canvas rolls be sowed together with perhaps a sowing machine or something into one giant canvas roll?(Or would anyone know were to get a 20 foot thick canvas roll)

    Question 2 would I be able to roll out say 10 foot worth of canvas and work on the 10 foot, Finish the 10 foot then roll the 10 foot up.Then roll the other side 10 more feet so I would have 1 small roll of finished canvas,10 foot of canvas ready to paint, And a big roll of rolled up canvas.(I would find this would be best to work as I would like to keep this one massive roll of canvas that I can bring to shows and such)

    question 3. Would the heaviest canvas work the best(so perhaps 15 oz or as large as I can get) Would a thicker canvas help prevent cracking paint and wrinkling of the canvas?

    question 4.
    Can or should a oil based primer be used(this would take longer to dry. I would thick acrylic primer may be best but I prefer oil based in smaller works is why I ask) Oh and another point, Can oil paint be used on rolled canvas, Would acrylic be better for rolling up or would oil be best(I still would prefer oil but who knows)

    question 5. Is it true that you should not paint thickly when painting on a roll in this method. How much texture could be added. (would a more toothed canvas be better for less cracking of paint and allow thicker paint being brushed?) How thick is too thick? (like would 1/16 of a inch be too much paint? )

    question 6. Cotton or linen. Would linen work a lot better in rolls? I know its more durable but more expensive as well. Also not sure if you can get linen as thickly as you can get cotton. (I plan on buying un-primed and priming it myself regardless.)

    question 7. Any mediums that may improve the durability of the paint and flexibility.(I know almost any medium improves this sort of thing but for lose rolled up canvas any recommendations? I was thinking damar medium with a bit of wax perhaps )

    Question 8. Any other advice or comments that could help would be good. I plan on entering this(If and when I ever start and finish this) into the Grand-rapids art prize thing. I do plan on perhaps someone one day buying it(if I can get it into the prize and get it shown. Any how anyone who has knowledge working on big works would also be helpful.

    Any how thanks for reading this, I may come up with other things to ask.

    #1247257

    There are a few questions to be answered first. I have painted some very large murals, but I either painted the mural on a special prepared wall or on a special mural canvas that was applied to the wall.

    How do you plan to apply this to a hanging support?

    Will this venue have the space for a 20 x 60 painting available to you for hanging?

    As far as stitching canvas together…there is a defined line, rolling it will likely crack the paint at those lines. Even a 10′ x 20′ canvas with priming, gesso and
    paint is going to be heavy.

    Canvas must be primed well…then a minimum of 3 coats of gesso. For this reason I have always purchased pre-primed canvas.

    Painting in oils on something this size is going to take a long time to dry and must be throughly dry before trying to roll it up. It will also need a protective coat of something clear to seal it…that can cause cracking when rolled up in a roll this size. To roll this, it will require s roll center support…that will need to be something a minimum of 24’…again more weight. This will need to be out of a very strong material (not wood) that will not flex when moved. PVC pipe wouldn’t work either. So, these are some things to think about and consider.

    I have used 8′ to 10′ rolls but did not roll the canvas up once the painting was complete. I did sections that were permanently mounted and then went back to blend the edges.

    My preference is Fredrix Canvas because of their high quality. When putting this much time, effort and money into a project on this scale…the best materials are critical.

    Have you considered working in a “water base” paint? I switched from oils to water base for a number of reasons.

    Angel :angel:
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    #1247258

    I forgot to add…for murals I switched to a special “water base” paint.

    I am not saying your project isn’t possible…”I have never met a situation that didn’t have a solution”. As I can see from your post…you are researching and planning. Ask for samples of canvas from any of the companies that you consider.

    Wishing you the best.

    Angel :angel:
    Website Makeover Coming! This is available now.
    http://www.artist-bythesea.com/

    #1247253

    Thanks for the advice Seaside artist. I had not even considered the central support thing that the canvas would be wrapping around.(I figured 144 pounds of raw canvas with nothing on it but with paint and other such that may be much heaver.) When you say wood would not support it do you mean hollow wood. What about wood with some sort of structure inside sort of like a bridge. Or wood with metal support or something.
    Yes I have been trying to figure out basically how to make a mural sized work without having a mural basically. (This is because of the time it will take to create my vision and also the fact I wish to enter it into that contest and have the ability to remove the work after it need be)
    What you said about stitching makes me wonder if I should do 3 or 4 rolls perhaps at 5-6 feet long and perhaps connect them later or leave blank unpainted canvas to be sowed together.(this may be easier said then done)

    In terms of the hanging question it depends on the venue (and if and when I get in) There are venues there that are large(some are outside as well) Would prefer a inside venue as a giant 60 foot by 20 foot painting would make a fantastic sail but perhaps could secure it outside.) If it is inside there would be less worry. I would need a large wall and some way of hanging the vary top to something(if I sowed the lower layers of canvas together or even had a temporary rope system or something that may work) I am envisioning almost how large curtains are hung.(perhaps if I use rope to connect lower canvas I could tie the ropes to something for extra support)(may also have something heavy that it is connected to on the ground so people can’t get behind it)

    After it is shown if no one buys it I would then roll the canvases (or one big canvas if I find a way to connect it but may do 3/4 little ones instead) and take it back home perhaps one day to be shown again or sold to someone else.
    If someone buys it then I wish for a more permanent solution and would work with them. I would like to have it connected and with like a huge frame or something(Because of it’s size I would assume it would need to be a public building or something and I would plan on perhaps wood panels to be connected to the back or even it connected to the wall itself some how)

    Oh and when you say the oil paint(If I do it with oil paint and not acrylic) when you say it would need to be dry before rolling do you mean dry to the touch (so perhaps 10 days of waiting to make sure ) or fully dry (perhaps a good year or more before rolling more)If you mean a year or so then acrylic would be the answer.(Or water based oil would be the alternative to acrylic)

    Fredrix Canvas may be the right canvas to go with.

    Hhhhmmm thinking again even if I did it in multiple 60 foot long canvases and they only connected on the back or something(with me leaving unpainted canvas to stitch or connect some how)It could be fully united into one big work when and if someone buys it as the work could be glued or connected to wood panels or a big wall or a wood wall or something)

    Any how thanks for the advice.

    #1247259

    Your artwork will need to be fully cured…we are talking a full 6 months for thinly painted work and more for a thickly painted to cure. Then you will need at least one coat of a type of varnish…then that will need to cure. So I would plan on a full year given the size of the work. Often it is required to go in and rework a section…that requires adding more time for drying. Things like color shifts, sinking in, etc. and other issues can come up. The paint will stick when rolled up if it is not completely dry 100%. If paint is even slightly moist when rolled it could effect multiple layers that no one would see until you unroll it.

    Stitching would need to be done before being painted…otherwise a well meaning seamstress may stitch over an area causing cracking and uneven
    lines…there would be noticeable stitch holes to try to cover up.

    What part of the country are you in? I can see if the mural company has a representative of those products close to you. It does take training (Art School) to use their products…they do not sell without this because they stand behind their products with guarantees. Going through this was one of the best experiences of my art career. These are “water based” paints and products. No one else makes or sells any products like these.

    I think you are talking about at least 300 lbs of just painting with canvas and materials per 10′ x 20′ section. That doesn’t include any supports for the work. Grommets are used to hang canvas in some cases, but not sure they could hold this much weight and would need professional anchoring into the wall.

    Have you considered aluminum panels…they come in 4 x 8 sections and could be hung in sections? I have exhibited in many areas of the country in different venues but it is rare to find a place for something this size. Do you have a place you can measure out the amount of space you will need to get a good visual of your plan? If using canvas for a moveable work of art it seems that the sections of 5′ to 6′ might be easier to deal with. I had an acquaintance who used polyester fabric for large works of art, but it didn’t require any paint on it.

    Outdoor exhibits offer their own set of challenges…oils would not hold up well being baked in the sun, wind blowing a canvas this size or heaven forbid rain. I am sure you are thinking about all of this, but wanted to be sure to share the things I had to learn along the way. Again…acrylics are going to be more flexible unless painted thick.

    I have also created and used aluminum frameworks to hang artwork…including from the ceiling. Just thinking outlaid here…that might be a better way of attaching the artwork to a temporary or permanent installation. I used ropes and pulleys to raise and lower this.

    Perhaps some of these ideas will be something that works for you. I hope you post pictures here so that others can be inspired.

    Angel :angel:
    Website Makeover Coming! This is available now.
    http://www.artist-bythesea.com/

    #1247254

    Thanks for more info.Looks like I will be doing it then in acrylic and or water based oil being waiting 6 months to a year per 10 foot section would mean 6 years or so to finish… instead I will use the water based oil or acrylic.

    I have looked into wood panels and aluminum panels but the main problem with these is it would be much more expensive as each would need to be cradled in wood/metal. The logistics just sort of end up more nuts. Plus there would need to be some way of connecting all the aluminum/wood panels together with some sort of giant frame or something. This was my first idea but just seemed way too complicated. (Also this would require me to keep all the wood panels in my home and just too much stuff) Decided rolled canvas is going to be a lot easier. Although I bet the wood/aluminum panel method would produce better work as it would be more flat and stable.

    Oh speaking of stitching again. What if I had say 6 inches along the bottom that were unpainted (perhaps simply primed or even raw) I was thinking the non painted canvas could be perhaps stitched to another 6 inches of unpainted Sort of 6 inches of unpainted over 6 more inches of unpainted(would assume this may create a thin line. (If it leaves a noticeable line could paint over it perhaps or something)

    Or could simply have (2,)10 foot wide 60 foot long canvas rolls. Leave them un-stitched and simply allow them to be close to one another. And one day if it’s at a more permanently location it would not mater as it could be directly connected to a wall or panel.

    If it did get into the show and was outside it would probably be OK. would only be outside for a month or so.I would assume sun would not be that big of deal in a month. Rain would not be good but last time I looked at venues there were some outside spots that had cover.(But inside would be best)

    I live in Michigan around metro Detroit. I was not thinking of a mural company so if you know of some in this area that would be good.

    Oh I have another question. This would be on working on the rolled canvas. I was thinking of perhaps taking the rolled canvas to a park or some large flat place(Or even a parking lot… That may be best as it would be naturally flat.) rolling it out(if I do water based oil or acrylic I would not need to worry about drying time and could do some of the stuff all at one time)I was thinking of laying bricks or something heavy at the edges to keep the work down and in place. Would grass be too uneven to work on. Would I need a more flat surface like a parking lot. Alternatively would I need something even more flat then a parking lot. I was thinking of bringing a flat wood panel and placing it under what I am going to be working on or would that be not needed. My feelings of working on top of grass is it would be too giving and not allow much control, I am thinking a falter surface like asphalt or concrete wood be good.((Also a good idea to check on rain and such)

    I feel I would need to get a good ground layer on everything after it’s primed, perhaps a raw umber or something. And so the coat is even working on everything at one time would be best.(I was thinking of using something big perhaps a mop or broom to do it quickly, have any experience working with a big tool like that?)I know it can be done as I have seen brooms and mops used)Wood need to make sure it’s a non rainy day(Although if it was acrylic and did rain that may be a vary cool looking effect but not what I am after.)

    (perhaps I should get first a smaller roll of canvas and test some of this stuff first before I proceed with this vary large work. Perhaps try a smaller 10-30 or so work on rolled canvas.)post pictures would be a fun idea also good for myself to look back on the process.

    Any how thanks seaside artist

    #1247260

    You are welcome…

    The first thing I would do is get in touch with Fredrix and see if they can provide you with the pre-primed acrylic canvas that is triple coated with gesso. I am not sure if they are limited by their production in providing a 60′ canvas. If they can, they can give you more info on the weight and price. 15oz or 12oz minimum is what I would use. Fredric makes their own canvas with a good tight weave. Linen wouldn’t work…canvas duck cotton would be best.

    Fredrix also makes canvas that can be used for outdoors…used for inkjet, but can also be painted on.

    Actually the sun can become an issue immediately depending on the colors that you use. Some are more lightfast than others. If using regular acrylics “Golden” is the best in my opinion. You can go to their website and find a listing for color and lightfastness. I would also suggest that you contact them direct, tell a technician about your project and ask them for their recommendations.

    When I put up additional coats of primer I used a wide roller on a extended pole. I tried various roller to get the finish I was looking for. I was able to reach 10′ areas with my 8′ pole.

    The WMO would not hold up well for outdoors…again, they do not have the flexibility that acrylics have. It will take a great deal of movement to get your artwork up and then taking it down…moving it to and from locations to work on, etc.

    I do recommend that you work with a smaller roll…test materials and paints to see what happens. Even acrylics need time to cure…not months, but certainly a week before it gets rolled up. A flexible coating UV should be applied, it may take 2 coats to protect your work. A covered area is ideal, and inside is best with no direct sun.

    Let me think about your other questions…you are right, the grass would be problematic for a number of reasons. Perhaps you could think about the possibility of an empty building or garage someone might let you work in. I worked off of scaffolding with canvas attached with heavy duty clips.

    Looking forward to the photos…it is always great to capture the moment!

    Angel :angel:
    Website Makeover Coming! This is available now.
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    #1247252
    snoball
    Default

        One thing, which may be a moot point, is that you always roll a painted canvas with the paint to the outside of the roll. If you roll with paint on the inside of the roll, it will crack when unrolled.


        If you're asking me for advice, I'm going to assume that you've run out of rational options.
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        #1247255

        15oz or 12oz minimum good to know. I will try to get 20oz if I can. I will have to call Fredrix to see what they can get me. Outdoors canvas also sounds good to ask about. Golden would be a good brand to go with. I wonder if I could put a thin layer of oil paint over it (prob not but perhaps if someone ends up buying it and putting it in a permanent place)
        A “wide roller on a extended pole” is a good idea, be more even then my mop idea or my broom idea.
        Yes I will get a smaller canvas for testing, also to see how quickly I can work on something like this. A 10 by 30 would not be too big so could use some of my driveway for a flat surface. There is a metal awning under part of the driveway. I could perhaps paint 15 feet, let dry and then another 15 feet perhaps. For the 20/60 will need to bring it to a flat shaded place. Any how thanks seaside for your insight and knowledge.

        Good thing to point out Snoball. I did know of that but I should keep it in the back of my mind when working.

        #1247261

        15oz or 12oz minimum good to know. I will try to get 20oz if I can. I will have to call Fredrix to see what they can get me. Outdoors canvas also sounds good to ask about. Golden would be a good brand to go with. I wonder if I could put a thin layer of oil paint over it (prob not but perhaps if someone ends up buying it and putting it in a permanent place)
        A “wide roller on a extended pole” is a good idea, be more even then my mop idea or my broom idea.
        Yes I will get a smaller canvas for testing, also to see how quickly I can work on something like this. A 10 by 30 would not be too big so could use some of my driveway for a flat surface. There is a metal awning under part of the driveway. I could perhaps paint 15 feet, let dry and then another 15 feet perhaps. For the 20/60 will need to bring it to a flat shaded place. Any how thanks seaside for your insight and knowledge.

        Good thing to point out Snoball. I did know of that but I should keep it in the back of my mind when working.

        If this work is installed you could work oil over the acrylic layers of paint. You should be safe if it is installed and not rolled. We used powered scaffolding at times when possible for working at these heights. Other times we used reg. scaffolding…depending on the height it will take 2 or 3 = 8′ levels…aluminum is better than steel.

        A number of my fellow mural artist who had the best of materials and great talent tried everything possible to create different layers of materials to show clients. My background is in fine art…painting on large surfaces just happened along the way in learning materials and techniques.

        I found my extended pole for rolling at Home Depot…it is aluminum. I used it for many purposes.

        I believe Golden has 5 gal buckets of paint which would be cost saving too.

        Angel :angel:
        Website Makeover Coming! This is available now.
        http://www.artist-bythesea.com/

        #1247256

        Thanks I will have to look up those 5 Gal golden buckets, That would be good cost savings. powered scaffolding is something to look into as well as normal scaffolding if gets installed.(looks like a 20 foot powered scaffolding can be rented for 120 a week but may of misread that on the site)
        ” extended pole for rolling at Home Depot”seems like a good thing to have for rolling the paints on first layers.
        Any how thanks for the info again. Starting to gather more info and plan. Going to make some phone calls and such.

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