Home Forums Explore Media Pen and Ink Pen and Ink Help Desk Barn door (there’s discussion about cross hatching in this)

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  • #995448

    Another attempt to master this difficult medium of pen and ink. As a long time watercolour painter with some experience in oils I find the rendering of shadows the most difficult. My cross-hatching seems clumsy and contrived. How do the rest of you manage? I resisted the temptation to use a wash of India ink as I wanted to try and keep this a pure pen and ink effort. All comments welcome as I’m new to this group and this medium. My problem is I don’t know what it is I don’t know, so I have to face the learning curve of making mistakes and learning from them. From my own photograph and image size 7 1/2″ x 11 1/2” on Arches 140 lb. hot pressed paper using a variety of Staetdler pens from 001 – 005 and a Pigma Graphic 1.

    I usually hang out at http://www.watercoloursforfun.com

    #1274665
    Olaf
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        Love it . . :thumbsup:

        [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]"God is dead." —Nietzsche

        "Nietzsche is dead." —God

        #1274646
        Davkin
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            Wonderful rendering of the textures. The rocks in particular had to have been quite difficult. I think you’ve done very well with this.

            David

            #1274652

            Very well done.

            Christel

            #1274662
            outsidelogic
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                Looks like you’re doing pretty well, especially with the wooden door. I don’t think your cross-hatching is clumsy; I think you’ve established a nice value for the shadows from the hinges…it looks very natural. You might use a brush to ink in some of the dark lines, like in between the boards or along the edge of the hinges. The variation in the brush line will make your picture more fluid. The problem with technical pens is that the uniform line width can make a drawing look, well, technical, and a bit stiff and lifeless. Also, the extreme darks from a brush line will give your picture more depth.

                I have to say that I didn’t know at first what the left side of the picture was supposed to be. I guess it’s a stone wall, but the style you used makes it look very separate from the door. It also seems maybe a bit out of focus…? Rocks can be hard to render with pen and ink. The most natural-looking effect is usually to use a bunch of fine lines cross-hatched in random directions to convey the rough surface of the rock. You can layer these lines on in various densities. That’s just one approach. I’ve experimented a bunch but still haven’t settled on a technique I’m comfortable with.

                Glenn

                #1274639
                Blah
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                    Beautifully rendered door and hinges . :thumbsup:
                    I too could not figure out what was on the left side of the door but I think the way you have drawn the stonework would look just fine if one wasn’t looking at such a small part of it.

                    #1274675
                    Jeffro Jones
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                        Its a bit hard to decipher the types of marks you’re using because of the blurriness of the image – is it a photo, rather than a scan? Scans, properly reduced for clarity, are best, but you may not have a scanner. Its always a problem getting the ink line to register well in a web-optimized graphic, sadly, its a problem that won’t go away :(

                        My cross-hatching seems clumsy and contrived.

                        You’re right to wonder about the cross-hatching. Its a very problematic technique, and much abused by beginners. Directional shading or textural shading is far preferable. Cross-hatching can have undesired graphic effects. Strangely, novices leap at cross-hatching like moths to flame, as if this rather dull graphic cliche is the path to nirvana, while other far more interesting options remain unexplored.

                        Look at this prettily done little street scene by Martin Rico:

                        Most of the shading is directional, and there is very little cross-hatching, except a bit in shadow areas. Directional and textural shading adds life to a pen drawing, whereas cross-hatching has the effect of deadening areas. Its worth doing a number of drawings with NO CROSS HATCHING WHATSOEVER to force yourself into using more imaginative pen techniques.

                        :::

                        #1274666
                        Olaf
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                            Personally, I find your treatment of shadow perfectly fine.

                            I don’t at all understand by what authority, other than personal preference, directional/textural shading is imagined to be superior to cross-hatching and that cross-hatching is the unimaginative refuge of novices/beginners.

                            This is art, not science.

                            [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]"God is dead." —Nietzsche

                            "Nietzsche is dead." —God

                            #1274641

                            First off, thank you so much all of you who were kind enough to drop by and leave so many useful comments.

                            Jeffro: I’m going to post both the original and my version as a scan rather than a digital photograph. That’s something I’ve learned right off the bat. You’re right about beginners leaping to cross-hatching, and I just didn’t know any better. In my first posting I had used an India ink wash to suggest shadows and other textures, as suggested by our course instructor, but I wanted to experiment with what I thought were the “proper” pen and ink techniques. Your example is interesting and I’ll try that with my next posting.

                            Glenn: As you will see from the original photograph that is a very rough hewn stone wall to the left of the barn door frame and very difficult (for me) to render in pen and ink. My original watercolour fared much better of course as I had the optical illusion of colour, light, shade and reflected light. As a long retired graphic artist I tend to love detail. I’m going to try a couple of those technical pens for my main “bones’ and use the other types as needed. For example, the texture of the stonework was more suited the 1/8′ wide Pigma Graphic 3, dragged sideways to form a textured surface.

                            I have to say this section of Wet Canvas is proving vital for my efforts at pen and ink, and any comments are more than welcome.

                            #1274667
                            Olaf
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                                . . You’re right about beginners leaping to cross-hatching, and I just didn’t know any better. . .

                                Gotta disagree, Watercolor and Jeffro. Virtually every bit of instructional material I’ve seen on pen & ink makes plain and discusses the various strokes used for shading: cross-hatching, directional lines, stippling, and more. Each is useful depending on the desired effect. Type “drawing with pen and ink” into Google for starters.

                                I think it entirely unwarranted to unilaterally label cross-hatching as the first-ditch effort of novices and beginners. In whose opinion?

                                Type “cross hatch drawing” into Google.

                                [FONT="Comic Sans MS"]"God is dead." —Nietzsche

                                "Nietzsche is dead." —God

                                #1274635

                                I think the scan is clearer than the photo John and I like the way you’ve used different techniques for different textures.:)

                                Excellent wood and hinges – very believable. Good portrayal of the strong sunlight.

                                *****

                                I’ll throw this in – one of the first things one learns about creating tones with pencil or pen is cross hatching – and it’s a useful technique to know. How it’s used is another matter, and it’s up to the individual to work out the best way for him/her – often by trial and error …. it can be very sensitive, or a bit ugly!
                                There are no right or wrong ways to do things – there’s just ‘your’ way :) – and I think we all try to find our best method of rendering something with sensitivity and sympathy.
                                Finding your own ‘signature’ way is how you make your work unique and different.

                                One man’s meat … etc etc!

                                Happy New Year!:)

                                Cheers, Maureen


                                Forum projects: Plant Parade projects in the Florals/Botanicals forum , WDE in the All Media Art Events , Different Strokes in Acrylics forum .

                                #1274647
                                Davkin
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                                    Gotta disagree, Watercolor and Jeffro. Virtually every bit of instructional material I’ve seen on pen & ink makes plain and discusses the various strokes used for shading: cross-hatching, directional lines, stippling, and more. Each is useful depending on the desired effect. Type “drawing with pen and ink” into Google for starters.

                                    I think it entirely unwarranted to unilaterally label cross-hatching as the first-ditch effort of novices and beginners. In whose opinion?

                                    Type “cross hatch drawing” into Google.

                                    I agree with Olaf here. Cross hatching simply is not a beginner only technique, many masters in the past used it as well. I do encourage you to try all kinds of techniques but once you’ve found what you enjoy employing and gives you an effect you like go ahead and use it, don’t worry about how others might feel about it.

                                    David

                                    #1274642

                                    It’s fascinating that my request for advice has roused passions in favour of this or that technique! I know similar passions rage in the watercolour section, particularly over how to get your image on paper and what constitutes “cheating”, as though some sort of art police are hovering out there waiting to nail us for some transgression. I think such strong convictions are good and I welcome the chance to pick and choose which passions I will adopt. At the moment I’m not enamoured of cross-hatching, but that may be because I’m not very good at it and I find it tedious. As I post more pieces I expect I’ll find a style that pleases me and will be a compromise some will like and some not. Meanwhile I have the joy of the learning process and knowing I’m happily retired and don’t have to sell anything so I can satisfy my own creative needs at my own speed. Keep the comments coming everyone. Let the passion run wild!

                                    #1274685

                                    Nice work. Seems like you are on the right track. :)

                                    #1274640
                                    Bluegill
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                                        Personally, I find your treatment of shadow perfectly fine.

                                        I don’t at all understand by what authority, [I][U]other than personal preference[/U][/I], directional/textural shading is imagined to be superior to cross-hatching and that cross-hatching is the unimaginative refuge of novices/beginners.

                                        This is art, not science.

                                        I agree. I try to use a wide variety of pen strokes and shading methods, but crosshatching holds a dear place in my heart.

                                        Regarding this drawing, I like it, well done! I do agree about the confusing nature of the stones on the left, but that has less to do with your penwork and more to do with the choice to portray it as it is in the photo. I often run into trouble (much bigger trouble than you ran into here, in my opinion) when I try to depict something that seems pretty straight-forward when viewed in real life or a subject photo, but which just does not translate well into a drawn or painted image. I have found spotting that sort of thing in advance to be a skill acquired with great difficulty, and I’m still not good at it.

                                        On Instagram and Facebook as Marktablerart
                                        http://marktablerart.blogspot.com/
                                        http://www.marktablerart.com/

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