Home Forums The Town Center Café Guerbois Damian Hurst artist or CON artist

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  • #989525

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123346/Con-art-The-genius-Damien-Hirst.html

    I used to be undecided, but now I'm not so sure.

    The moving finger clicks, and having clicked, logs on.

    #1158952
    Horsa
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        This is a shining example of the power of Magical Thinking. In this case the Principle of Contagion. Contact with a famous or worthy indidual confers attributes of that individual to objects roughing them.

        None of these famous pieces would command anywhere near the sums they do if they were offered up by you or I. It is solely through their connection with Hirst that they have any value.

        There are many works of art by anonymous artists that are considered priceless treasures. Contrast this with the “art” produced by Hirst et al.

        My Painting Blog: http://adkpainter.blogspot.com/

        This is our ART: useless, boring, impotent, elitist, and very, very beautiful.

        #1158944
        ianuk
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            I imagine he must have worked hard to get where he is. Art is about innovation and imagination, something he’s obviously got. No one gets to the top of anything without hard work and vision, I don’t care who they are.

            Someone somehwere, obviously sees the potential of his work in a world of mundane and mediocre, same old same.

            To make and leave a mark in this world and to climb above the croud is no easy thing, regardless of the work produced.

            I neither like or dislike his work. However,

            Good luck to the guy!

            #1158958
            Trond
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                I usually think that people should be able to enjoy whatever they please, but that I, myself see little to nothing in the likes of Damien Hirst. This article indicates that the situation was a bit worse than I thought. I actually thought the man had a bit more “crafty” skills than may be the case. I sort of liked the following quote:
                This was how the emperor was dressed; his expensive robes were in the minds of people around him, when in reality he had nothing on. Hirst’s work has no art in it.” :)

                I found this piece of information (Wikipedia) on his spot paintings:
                Hirst said that he only painted five spot paintings himself because, “I couldn’t be [expletive] arsed doing it”; he described his efforts as [espletive]—”They’re [expletive] compared to … the best person who ever painted spots for me was Rachel. She’s brilliant. Absolutely [expletive] brilliant. The best spot painting you can have by me is one painted by Rachel.” He also describes another painting assistant who was leaving and asked for one of the paintings. Hirst told her to, “‘make one of your own.’ And she said, ‘No, I want one of yours.’ But the only difference, between one painted by her and one of mine, is the money.'”[54] By February 1999, two assistants had painted 300 spot paintings. Hirst sees the real creative act as being the conception, not the execution, and that, as the progenitor of the idea, he is therefore the artist

                #1158945
                ianuk
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                    More honest than most then! :)

                    #1158959
                    Trond
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                        More honest than most then! :)

                        :D I guess.

                        But I just thought of something that made me a bit more…..grumpy (for lack of a better word) about this: the amount of money involved in what is, essentially, some pretty simple ideas mostly executed by others. I know of some modern artists who deserve a lot more acclaim, and money, than some of this rubbish.

                        For some reason, I came to think of Craig Thompson, the comic book artist. Maybe I’m wrong, I suspect that he’s doing OK as far as income goes, but he’s certainly not filthy rich, and for all I know he could be struggling. But his work (e.g. “Habibi” and “Blankets”) are so filled to the brim with ideas, stories, and both realistic art and abstract patterns, that it should put most other living artists to shame. If you still don’t think comic books can be great art, then do yourself a favor and buy one of the Craig Thompson books. Seriously. And the man literally does everything himself.

                        Compared to this, the wealth of the “cocky” Damien Hirst highlights how unfair the art world (in a wide sense) can be.

                        #1158960
                        Trond
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                            Unfair? People that pay for his work know perfectly well what they are paying for. No one is making anyone buy Hirst’s work. In many ways he is a conceptual artist and his persona is part is the theatrics and performance in what his collectors are paying for.

                            Art “stardom” is very different from perhaps what someone might think is being “fair” — whatever [I]that[/I] is. Many artists have other people doing the work for them and don’t even disclose it. He is totally transparent about it.

                            Warhol did this. Kostabi too. Kehinde Wiley has his work painted in China. The list goes on.

                            I know, and that’s just how unfair the world is, in my opinion. Similar to people making big money on low-quality pop music because the performer (who never wrote a song in his or her life) looks good. Or are we going to argue that there is no such thing as fair or unfair at all? Not saying I can change it, but I still think many people are more deserving. Warhol does not impress me either, but at least mass-produced art was a new thing at the time (well, new in the galleries, not the trinket store). Reading about him makes me realize something. Damien Hirst is a bit like the band he used to listen to: Sex Pistols, basically giving the finger to people who buy their records, and shock value more than anything else. They also made good money. Much of Hirst’s work isn’t even novel ideas anymore.

                            Idea: Lichtenstein made art out of comics, so why can’t modern art galleries also buy original art by an actual comic book artist like Craig Thompson? His pictures actually has real human stories behind them, and he’s a talented craftsman too. I am not even being old-fashioned here. As far as I know, that’s a new idea.

                            #1158961
                            Trond
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                                According to who? You? You don’t like Warhol or the Sex Pistols, so I would not put you in charge. Sorry.

                                Yeah, if I had to choose, I’d take Iron Maiden or Judas Priest any day of the week :D

                                But I certainly wasn’t born yesterday: I CAN see the idea behind Craig-Martin’s “An Oak Tree”. Maybe it’s worth a decent sum as an interesting concept, and a pat on the back. But it’s not in the same league as Velazquez’s “Las Meninas”. Not by a long shot. That painting did not rely on famous names or shock value by the way. People simply realized what a great artwork it is, based on its own merits. Damien Hirst seems to have started selling based on shock value (dead animals and all that) and later floated on his famous name. Correct me if I am wrong here.

                                Well, as far as wealthy patrons go, that’s just up to them, but SOMEONE is making decisions based on their perception of quality and interest at the large galleries such as Tate. Some of the decisions are probably justified, others not so much. Mass-produced art? That’s everywhere, why make more of it and glorify it in a gallery? Maybe once, to make some sort of point, but I would rather go to a gallery to escape from it. By the way, the “old masters” are also not immune to my criticism in this regard. Some of them let their workshop do most of the work, and then signed it as their own. The difference in quality is sometimes noticeable.

                                #1158962
                                Trond
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                                    Variety is out there and available. People make their decisions. If people are impressed by “shock value,” let them be sheep in formaldehyde, or in a crowd, or in a box with a fox.

                                    …it can still bother you, but we can not control these things. That’s all.

                                    Yes, I’m coming back to edit because, for lack of a better word, you have made me a little “grumpy” LOL! ;) Do you really think the world should be fair in the manner of what artists should make more money? This world is far from “fair!” The world NEVER has been fair. Since when should the earth start becoming fair? This is such a naive idea. Sorry if I’m offending you, but it just seemed so far out to lunch — when you said how some people were more deserving… Wow! I can think of some starving people in Ethiopia that deserve some food. I don’t think anyone “deserves” a wad of cash!

                                    Seriously, that’s what makes you grumpy? :rolleyes:

                                    The fact that the world has never been fair doesn’t matter. The world was never a very humane place either, but we sometimes manage to make it better. You know, because sometimes people point out that “that’s not very fair, is it?” That’s why some people decide to actually help out in Ethiopia. I also like to point out to people when I feel they are being duped. Just because someone has an ego the size of China does not make him a great artist. It does, however, make it more likely to find him in the newspaper (because he’s good at convincing people to put him there), which suddenly can make him into a household name.

                                    Compare normal everyday products: say a person invents a new device that makes daily life easier. Only sad thing is, this brilliant inventor sucks at self-promotion, so he’s quickly out-competed by others who are constantly over-inflating the importance of their own products. This is what I mean by “not fair”. Sometimes, it helps if someone points out that, “you know, you may not have heard of him, but the other guy’s product is actually much better”.

                                    #1158946
                                    ianuk
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                                        It’s not fair that someone can work all their life and barely get by, while someone that’s never worked buys a dollar ticket and wins two hundred million in a lottery. I know because it should have been me that bought that ticket!

                                        #1158976
                                        shadwell
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                                            i view it like rap music ” that has a silent “C” too !!”

                                            it seems to be an elite society of bone idle talentless wastes of skin and organs !!

                                            tracy emmins is included too except you can add alcholic moron to the list above for her

                                            the fact is though there are even bigger morons that buy the c**p

                                            the human condition never ceases to amaze me whereby someone will buy a print for £100.00 but won’t take the risk of spending £10.00 on an original

                                            [FONT=Fixedsys]if at first you don't succede !!!![/COLOR]
                                            [FONT=Fixedsys]give skydiving a miss !![/COLOR]

                                            [FONT=Fixedsys]
                                            #1158963
                                            Trond
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                                                And I don’t think one person is more deserving over another person, ever. Never. I’m sorry but I don’t understand that concept.

                                                Really? That’s an interesting position, which I frankly don’t understand myself. I thought my example was pretty clear in that regard, but maybe not. I think marketing (or lack thereof) often is one of the weakest links in capitalism, and it may have ruined many good things.

                                                Be that as it may, what if someone makes a good living from making blatant rip-offs and even forgeries? Forgeries may be covered by the law, but rip-offs often are not.

                                                As for my own taste in music, my favorite isn’t really any of the ones mentioned previously:D. Hard to say, I like many kinds of music, but Dream Theater is a long-standing favorite.

                                                #1158984
                                                Gaffette
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                                                    Really? That’s an interesting position, which I frankly don’t understand myself. I thought my example was pretty clear in that regard, but maybe not. I think marketing (or lack thereof) often is one of the weakest links in capitalism, and it may have ruined many good things.

                                                    Be that as it may, what if someone makes a good living from making blatant rip-offs and even forgeries? Forgeries may be covered by the law, but rip-offs often are not.

                                                    As for my own taste in music, my favorite isn’t really any of the ones mentioned previously:D. Hard to say, I like many kinds of music, but Dream Theater is a long-standing favorite.

                                                    If someone gets rich or successful by ripping someone else off the person who got ripped off has to just suck it up and move on to something better. The ripper obviously was able to do something better than the ripee in some regard to be out there and achieving success. It’s so easy to just sit around and make stuff then whine that a person is unrecognized when all they do is sit in their studio alone hoping to be “discovered”. I’ve been ripped off before and the person that did it was a niche award finalist this year with a direct rip of my stuff. Was it upsetting? yes. Am I sitting here all butt hurt over it moping that it should have been me? Hell no, because of I did that it will never be me.

                                                    I totally agree with not thinking anyone person is more deserving than another because we never know the whole story. Who to say the ripper is not really the innovator? Is it just because the ripee is louder? I refuse to pass any judgement that one artist is more “deserving” of success than another for that exact reason. Now saying someone is more talented or skilled? Eh, sure why not but we are still in an extremely subjective area and the collectors and critics are bound to keep liking what they like regardless of our opinions on the matter.

                                                    "I've been wrong on more occasions than I'd like to recognize, but there's room in our vocation if we read between the lines." F.M.

                                                    #1158953
                                                    Horsa
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                                                        Sarah: But, that’s not fair.
                                                        Jareth: No, it isn’t. But that’s the way it is.

                                                        Man in Black: Life is pain, Highness! Anyone who say differently is selling something.

                                                        Anonymous: Art is a way to make money off of dumb rich people.

                                                        It may not be fair that Damian Hirst is making bucket loads of money off his so called art, while other artists who put more of their own effort directly into creating art of better merit go unpaid and unrecognized. But this has always been the way of the art world. Look at the famous case of Vincent VanGogh for perhaps the most obvious example.

                                                        I think Hirt’s chief genius is the same as Warhol’s. Not making great art, but doing great marketing. Both have been true giants at persuading rich and influential people that the product they were offering was worth buying for large sums of money.

                                                        My Painting Blog: http://adkpainter.blogspot.com/

                                                        This is our ART: useless, boring, impotent, elitist, and very, very beautiful.

                                                        #1158964
                                                        Trond
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                                                            That seems to be clear.

                                                            ;)

                                                            Anyway, I don’t enforce the law. I leave that up to the police. And people who rip off other people, well they are (edit), but that goes on despite whether it is against the law or not, like murder, rape, theft, abuse, etc, etc.

                                                            Anyway, I’m an artist, not a judge.

                                                            Nonsense. You just said that “people who rip off other people, well they are (edit)”, which is all I am asking for (you might as well say they are undeserving). However, I gave you a clear example, and you just went into absolutes “never, ever” without so much as half an explanation. I told you how people complaining about unfairness can sometimes make a difference, and you go on about how ripping people off (and murder and rape) will go on no matter what. Sorry, but your position doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Of course some people deserve success more than others. Some of Charles Manson’s songs became popular after his killings. They were garbage, he’s a maniac, of course he doesn’t deserve it.

                                                            Gaffette: the problem with that position is twofold. First, this will always favor the loudest (and often most obnoxious) people. I am interested in art, not self-promotion, or at least not self-promotion that has nothing to do with the art (if art IS self-promotion, then Kim Kardashian is a great artist). If you get ripped off, then you point it out to make sure people know that the “ripper” does not deserve the acclaim. You know who did that? Damien Hirst. Yup, he’s been ripped off, and he was very much complaining about it.

                                                            Also, people pointing out that some art actually is of rather poor quality, despite its sales, and showing how the alternatives are better is actually part of the process. Lots of collectors may not care, fine, but this is how people who puts more of themselves into the art keep part of the market, rather than being pushed completely out of it. I think Van Gogh actually would have benefited from more people doing just that. Then maybe he could have done a little better for himself before he died. The fact that it is subjective is also OK. Just make your position clear and say why, perhaps someone will listen. The poor art usually reveals itself when the explaining starts. “It’s made by the guy who was mooning everyone on TV” isn’t a great start.

                                                            So please do point out who are undeserving rip-offs (even the “rippers” are doing it), and do say who you think deserves more attention and why. It can only help.

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