Pr83 was first made in 1868 and represents the first synthetically made substitute or replacement for another pigment, rose madder. In reality that makes it the very first “hue” of another genuine color. Does it replace and mix like genuine original rose madder? Not according to the first artists to use it, they found it to be less saturated and less brilliant. Few other colors engender such vitriolic responses as pr83, that is the part that escapes me.

You can mix till the cows come home but there is nothing that OPERATES like Alizarin Crimson throughout the mixing process.

While true that’s not really the point. If it is for you, fair enough.

It’s really the colours that one gets to that matter and those can be achieved by multiple routes, in some cases many routes – just ask 20 or so painters doing similar work whose palettes aren’t the same.

Sure you can make colours that look like PR83 and on the surface they look good but its in the mixing that they all fall apart and lose their character…

Well that’s certainly a subjective determination Doug!

…but PR83 always retains it characteristics through out the mixing process.

Could you show us what you mean by this by posting examples?

So therefore you lose a vital colour in your mixing …for what, longevity.

Funny how people can paint perfectly well without it. It’s not vital, it’s vital to you.

So I guess only if it lasts like 4,000 years will we use a pigment from now on and lose vital characteristics that Alizarin provides.

Please don’t veer off into hyperbole, it does nothing to serve a serious discussion about the issue.

Doug, I believe you’re an oil painter right? The issue is not just about one medium. In watercolour the paint is so fugitive as to make defences of its use practically absurd.

Call it a test if you will but you might be pleasantly surprised how well this colour helps you to paint better not to mention how beautiful it plays off the other colours.

Caveat emptor!

There is nothing like PR 83 …NOTHING.

The same is true of any number of single-pigment paints but you name it, someone can paint without it, with the possible exception of white.

Einion

There is an irrational POV on PR83 in these forums that refuses to look at this pigment objectivly which is fueled by a certain few indaviduals here. The truth is Pr83 is the identical in chemical structure in ?Nr5?(original madder) which has been used for centuries. There are examples of this pigment performance which do not suport the conclusions made with lightfastness tests.

The fact remains that pr83 and Nr5 has more history and much more predictablity as a pigment than any of the replacments being used today.

Doug, that all sounds right on the money to me (notwithstanding Schmid’s positive comments) but what about other substitutes/alternatives for this colour that aren’t mixes? Quinacridone Carmine for example? Quinacridone Crimson, Pyrrole Rubine, Perylene Maroon?

Beyond those colours which are close, what about the painters that don’t have a paint in this position but instead use a rose or magenta paint? They clearly don’t have trouble getting the colours they need by mixing in a completely different way.

Einion

I haven’t tried all of these exact colours you mentioned but have tried many and can’t remember all the specifics as I put a premium on character not necessarily where they sit on a colour wheel as being close to Alizarin, so it should work type thing.

Alizarin might be a red and we therefore think we can get close by using almost the same red but others will display different characteristics but all I have tried never measured up to the original Alizarin Crimson. For instance I tried the quins and they were to acidic in character and very pushy in a dominating way for me. But in the end I finally went back to Alizarins warm and welcoming attitude.

There’s also this warm wonderful glow that returned to my work that seems to come from this unique colour alone. Others have different properties to them. Ever see paintings that displayed this almost warm radiating quality…well, could it be Alizarins characteristics sitting in all those mid tones. There seems to be something special about this particular colour that others just don’t have.

Yes of course others can do without Einion but some I bet can relate on another level with this colour but Like Smokin said it’s gotten a bad rap and now many are avoiding it and I believe are going to suffer for it unnecessarily by way of missing out.

I am just saying give this colour another go and see for your self. If you have been away from Alizarin for a few years try it again and see if gained experience equals that you will recognize some of these unique differences.

Thanks for elaborating Doug

Einion

Since I understand that the topic of this thread is the irreplaceability of Alizarin Crimson, I have an observation that I’d like to make, pertaining to that topic.

I am often surprised by how totally unremarkable some of these colors that seem so “indispensable” or “irreplaceable” to certain artists actually are. In my humble opinion, the importance is the resulting color. If one pigment seems to be a bit fugitive in its nature, then simply select another one that seems close.

Inspired by all these “Alizarin Crimson” threads that seem to abound, lately, I took the advice of someone who, on another thread, suggested that a quite appropriate “replacement” for Alizarin Crimson was Old Holland’s Burgundy Wine Red, and I bought a tube of it. (One real advantage of Q & A sites, such as this) As many may be aware, Old Holland does not do the buyer a favor by printing the pigment ID on the label, so I have absolutely no idea what precise pigment it actually is.

However, it DOES state “Anthraquinone” on the label, so for all I know, it may be every bit as “fugitive” as real, PR83 Alizarin Crimson.

Inspired by the fact that some colors exhibit different overtones when mixed with white, or with other colors, I just did a side by side comparison, lightening an ancient tube of Alizarin Crimson with white, and also mixing my Old Holland’s Burgundy Wine Red with white. I added white until each was to the same approximate value.

There was no detectable difference, whatsoever between the appearance of the two. Granted, I do not have the availability of a color measuring instrument, as I used to have, but I’d be willing to bet that if put to a visual test by the most discriminating artists, the “real” Alizarin Crimson could not be identified from its counterpart–even when mixed with white.

Now, this tube of Burgundy Wine Red is not a “mix,” as was advocated in another thread, but it most certainly is a different pigment, and seems to behave much as the actual Alizarin Crimson does. To me, real Alizarin seems as though it represents a slightly yellower, and slightly dirtier version of PV19, and I don’t much care WHAT you wish to call PV19, (Rose, Red, Magenta, Violet, etc., etc.) That nomenclature seems to often be such an issue, in discussions.

Quite truthfully, I’ve been painting for 20 years+, have sold many paintings, and have received quite a few awards, and haven’t actually employed Alizarin Crimson on my palette in nearly that length of time, since I was led to believe the fugitive nature of real Alizarin Crimson. Some combinations of various Cadmium “Reds” and PV19 have worked exceptionally well for me, and I do flower paintings–the very type of subject that is quite dependent upon achieving various reds, yellows, and blues.

Color is color, and if one of them is purported to be “fugitive”, then simply select another, or a combination of others. It is really not brain science or rocket surgery.:D I could practically guarantee that you’ll be able to create every bit as acceptable work, if Alizarin Crimson were to suddenly disappear from this earth.

Bill