Nothing but charcoal...

[earlselwyn]

Thank you David!

[ArtistOz]

Originally Posted by DavidHH

Bill and Earl:

I'm sorry to go on about this, but as I've said a couple of times in this thread, I dont think the pose is classic contrapposto which could account for the suggestion that the breasts are displaced. The image below is taken from a photograph and I've modified it to avoid copyright infringement. The position of the legs is very similar to Earl's pose and the placement of the breasts is also very similar, although he could be a tad out. Unless we are standing in front of Earl's model, we cant see what he is seeing...

David it's good to clear these issues up anything that helps our understanding in drawing the figure makes us better figure drawers. There is no such thing as classic contrapposto if the facts of your photo are correct then its not contrapposto it doesn't fit the contrapposto model. I don't know the circumstances of the photo but I have hundreds of off balance model references that show similar characteristics and all of those poses are moving poses captured in the moment of off balance.

Rather than hi-jack Earl's thread I will start a new thread on contrapposto so we can see its limitations. If your argument is correct then Earl's drawing is off balance too which is what I noticed. To say we can't see what he is seeing is incorrect the drawing is exactly from Earl's point of view including his errors. Every drawing and painting we see is from the artists position, we can stand in his/her place. The structural design of the figure in a long pose tells me a model cannot support hours of standing without using contrapposto to keep her balance without support from somewhere else thus avoiding tension, my own modelling experience as an art student tells me you can't sustain an off balance pose for a long time, only moments, long enough to take a photo before correcting the balance.

Perspective tells me how a figure should be placed in space and Proportions tell me what the relationships would be from the different parts to each other. The structural design of the figure, perspective and understanding proportion tell me Earl's drawing is off.

[earlselwyn]

This pose is done. Moving on to the next one. -E

[dawnra]

Lovely finished drawing & great to see it at the WIP stages also, so that we could learn as you worked through it. Cant wait to see more of your work.

[ArtistOz]

You don't seem to have any problems capturing the light falling on the forms.

[DavidHH]

Youve worked so hard on this Earl and I applaud you. Fantastic shadow work

[earlselwyn]

Thanks Mike, David, and Bill!

I promise... this is my last post on this thread. I fear this dead horse has taken an excessive beating. For the record, my goal is to share my experiences (good and bad) in the hopes that others may do same. Anyway, I thought I'd share this pic from the studio. It's taken from my position when working on this pose. You can see exactly where the model was standing and my view of her.

Bill, Drawing on some visual cues in the studio I added some perspective lines to hopefully explain what I was seeing. I think your discussion on contrapposto is excellent. I learned from it. And to be clear, I'm not posting this as an argument to your opinion that something is wrong with this drawing. I think there is something off as well. I'll get it right on the next one.

Cheers,
Earl

[ArtistOz]

Earl I admire your stoicism in the face of criticism you take it well and I hope you can continue to take it as one artist to another and as long as the discussion is fruitful then it is worthwhile others will be better informed through your suffering. "It is not over until the fat lady sings." Your promise has been nullified in the interests of discussion.

Unfortunately your illustration reveals your misunderstanding of applying perspective you and anyone hoping to create visual illusions really need to do your research. Find a good book or good information online on perspective and study it.

I've redrawn the proper perspective grid for you to compare. Given the information previously your eye level and the models would be about the same level. You have put for some mad reason a horizontal line through the models crotch (eye level, eye line, horizon line ?) which would confuse your reading of perspective.

The eye level continues past the picture so the vanishing points will be off the page. Every perspective line above your eye level will descend to the VP on the eye line and every perspective line below the eye level will ascend to the eye line (horizon). You may see now what I am saying about the alignment of the breasts.

Understand the role perspective plays in creating the illusion and your next figure will be better placed.

[earlselwyn]

Bill,

1. I woke up feeling pretty good about myself. Now I'm breaking my promise to let this thread die. Sigh.
2. Can we at least agree that this drawing doesn't suggest the model [email protected] herself? *This may seem a bit random to some... it was actually one of Bill's earlier criticisms of my work and to date my personal favorite
3. Thank you for the thoughtful explanation. Well done.

Do I hear a fat lady singing?

-Earl

[macrobertson]

nicely finished Earl

and a good conversation about the difficulties of life drawing... always ongoing

.... I think the fat lady has finished singing

Mac

[monarch]

I am enjoying this thread. Informative, and it also shows that artists who I think are really good keep on learning, too. The drawing is lovely.