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Old 06-12-2019, 08:32 PM
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MagdaleneL MagdaleneL is offline
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

The very last most beautiful piece of art I saw that nearly moved me to tears was Ramos's fox, and how did he do it? STIPPLING. And it is exquisite. So to me I guess after seeing that lovely work stippling has been validated.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:58 PM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by laika
But Mike, the stippled dot is a line, albeit a line with a very tiny distance from one end to the other.

Embrace the dot, Mike, for the miniscule line that it is

En garde... touche! As they say.

In other words, it's a good point you make, even if sardonic.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:19 AM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagdaleneL
Banksy Chagall et all don't seem to have either I have to say. I dont find them profound, brazen or anything like that, the last people in the art movement that seemed to have been brazen were the impressionists who really attempted to honestly portray what they painted in a totallly different way using different painting techniques.

I know it might be barbecuing some people's holy cows but some of the modern day artists seems to me to be charlatans who make money out of people's naivety. Anyhow if that makes someone angry I apologize for that but that is my firm opinion.

I still disagree on the first point, and find myself agreeing with your last point to an extent. Hirst and Koons come to mind there. The modern conceptual-art "machines.

But as for Chagall, Modigliani, etc. If you think it would be straightforward for any "average" person with a bit of artistic talent, to paint quality work in the style of those latter two artists, for instance, I'm again suggesting you ought to reconsider that. There's actually a lot more craft going on than you think.

Maybe it's just a firm difference of opinion, and we might have to leave it at that.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:29 AM
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MagdaleneL MagdaleneL is offline
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman55
I still disagree on the first point, and find myself agreeing with your last point to an extent. Hirst and Koons come to mind there. The modern conceptual-art "machines.

But as for Chagall, Modigliani, etc. If you think it would be straightforward for any "average" person with a bit of artistic talent, to paint quality work in the style of those latter two artists, for instance, I'm again suggesting you ought to reconsider that. There's actually a lot more craft going on than you think.

Maybe it's just a firm difference of opinion, and we might have to leave it at that.

Yep best leave it at that, for me to change my mind once it is firmly made up is evidence to the contrary. I don't see any and of course neither do you in my attempts at explaining why I loathe and hate pop art, and that kind of surrealism or Fauvism or whatever Chagall called his style. It offends my eye. This is something Chagall said, it sounds to me he just wanted to have a job that would suit his personality and was not like most great masters a man who would die of a type of hunger if he couldn't paint.


"My hands were too soft.. I had to find some special occupation, some kind of work that would not force me to turn away from the sky and the stars, that would allow me to discover the meaning of life."

Marc Chagall
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:48 AM
tiago.dagostini tiago.dagostini is offline
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

One can be critical and aware of the limitation of a media and that doe snot mean a media is less of an art.

On the case in point.. lines hold more expression in their flow (that is not opinion, you can make a entropy analysis of the signal of the mark and that would support it..).. but brushes hodl even more than lines.. watercolor with its inherent uncoordinated element do it even more. Does that make lien work less of an art?

No.. It is just a boundary. You have to express yourself in a tighter boundary. Any one doing an image have boundaries.. boundaries that are smaller than one doing a movie.. that on other hand are still smaller than one doing a computer game to tell a story.

Stippling have tighter boundaries than line work... both have tighter boundaries than brush works.. and that goes on.. The artist decides on its language alongside the tools he decide to express it. You can write poetry in German or Portuguese or in English.. English is a much simpler language than the other 2.. yet.. great works have been made on it.. even tough German allows to create new nouns out of your pocket basically... and portuguese has so many verb modes and times and nuances between several forms of what "to be" means.. that it is easier to write philosophy in those languages.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiago.dagostini
lines hold more expression in their flow (that is not opinion, you can make a entropy analysis of the signal of the mark and that would support it.

A line compared to one dot or many dots? And one line does not make a flow unless it is especially unique. So, does science determine which is more artistic?
Bill
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:13 AM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

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Originally Posted by MagdaleneL
Yep best leave it at that, for me to change my mind once it is firmly made up is evidence to the contrary. I don't see any and of course neither do you in my attempts at explaining why I loathe and hate pop art, and that kind of surrealism or Fauvism or whatever Chagall called his style.

I've seen plenty of evidence of that, for sure. But the evidence is yours for the taking, not my prerogative to give. If you think that kind of work is "easy" you should try creating work with that style yourself, same size, same medium, same surface. My guess is you would then have at least an understanding that these works were done by professionals who worked very hard to achieve those results.

I'm not speaking of Twombly, or Andy Warhol's printmaking, or conceptual artists. Chagall, Max Beckmann, Van Gogh... all worked compulsively to do the best they could and achieved results that are not easy to replicate.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:19 AM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman55
I've seen plenty of evidence of that, for sure. But the evidence is yours for the taking, not my prerogative to give. If you think that kind of work is "easy" you should try creating work with that style yourself, same size, same medium, same surface. My guess is you would then have at least an understanding that these works were done by professionals who worked very hard to achieve those results.

I'm not speaking of Twombly, or Andy Warhol's printmaking, or conceptual artists. Chagall, Max Beckmann, Van Gogh... all worked compulsively to do the best they could and achieved results that are not easy to replicate.

I never saw you give any "evidence" that Chagall worked hard. I will ignore your reference to the others as I never mentioned them at all. I like van Gogh. I definitely do not aspire to paint like Chagall I can just ask a six year old to paint me something similar.

That is what I don't understand about your argument and others who think people like Chagall is any good. To compare then with old masters is like comparing a donkey cart to a Rolls-Royce. Not even possible.

It's as if Chagall got stuck in first grade and never tried to get better at painting. While think about a Renaissance master painter. Most of them worked for years as apprentices. Mixing paints and other mediums by hand and only after years of slog and most likely going hungry too were they even allowed to help the master painter with some of his paintings. All Chagall did was keep to his first grade in school type of naive childish paintings and I admit I laugh at people who pay good money for his scribbles. And that is an end of the argument as far as I am concerned, you keep Chagall I will keep Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Titian, too many to mention.
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:59 AM
tiago.dagostini tiago.dagostini is offline
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scene Chaser
A line compared to one dot or many dots? And one line does not make a flow unless it is especially unique. So, does science determine which is more artistic?
Bill




many dots as long as the extension of the mark is the same.. it is a theory of information thing. Information is not an abstract concept.. entropy is a very well defined realm of math.



Math determines what is TRUTH.. one might not want to agree.. but fact remains.. nothing math proved has ever been disproved.
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Old 06-15-2019, 02:01 AM
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laika laika is offline
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman55
En garde... touche! As they say.

In other words, it's a good point you make, even if sardonic.

I'm afraid you misinterpret me here, Batman55. "Sardonic" implies mockery, does it not? My point might possibly stand, but I was just having a bit of silly fun. I respect Mike's purist stance to the point that I've decided in future to restrict myself to straight-up pen-and-ink in this forum and put pen and anything else in Watermedia.

Having said that, the stipple question is something else. Look at Scenechaser/Bill, Gary Gackstatter, Maestro Ramos, Toowoomba... all frequent stipplers and all among the most accomplished artists in the forum (IMHO, FWIW).
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:54 PM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by laika
I'm afraid you misinterpret me here, Batman55. "Sardonic" implies mockery, does it not? My point might possibly stand, but I was just having a bit of silly fun. I respect Mike's purist stance to the point that I've decided in future to restrict myself to straight-up pen-and-ink in this forum and put pen and anything else in Watermedia.

You're right, in fact, that was not my intent. I think the better choice of words might have been "whimsical" or, simply, humorous.

I've always had a good vocabulary... but sometimes there's a tendency to misplace the words, here and there
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Old 06-16-2019, 12:09 AM
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Re: Stipplers - you are missing the point !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman55
I've always had a good vocabulary... but sometimes there's a tendency to misplace the words, here and there

Understood - we all do it sometimes. Not a problem
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